Dan & Phil Part 98: forever home!!1!!!

[Levitating]

but they definitely seem better off than the average English family.

I wouldn't say so. I'd say they are more likely to be middle-class! English families can be poor, but it is completely different when you come from a white family that has been in the country for generations - thus with less discrimination barriers compared to blacks/immigrants. It is interesting, though, to see that many of you are Americans!

If Dan and Phil didnt have such a “luxurious” life they COULD live off the money.

As someone else said, businesses require investments, so I struggle to image a passive life of no work in London, living off their views from old videos. They would have to move to the countryside and live an extremely parsimonious life to survive more than a couple a years! Definitely not possible now with a mortgage for the house - banks won't lend you money if they see you as someone who'd prefer not to work and live off current savings; it's a kind of inertia that does not do well to the economy and thus it would be too big of a risk for banks to invest in you.

It's definitely inspiring to see how much they've grown, especially in coming out. To me they were already on top of the (youtube/internet) world before their coming out videos; they were already in a position were others from their youtube-peers were open about their sexuality - a position where to see that openly gay youtubers did not loose subscribers but were instead even more respected. I guess this suggests how bigger the real world is, that one outside of Youtube, and that there are still too many prejudices against queer people in the U.K.

[autumnhearth]

I'm not particulalarly interested in the discussion rn, but as the inventor of Capita£ester (read the £ as an L!) I had to react because if that joke has ever had a derogatory tone to it, it was simply used wrong. And like it says in my signature, I do not stand for that.

The joke is from an era where while Dan was going on about ~authenticity and all that goof stuff, Phil seemed the one that remembered that It Is A Job and seemed more money oriented. Not in a greedy laxative tea sponning influencer kind of way, just in a funny way compared to Dan. The way he would make sure to plug merch and get those videos over 10 minutes, in combination with his entire wardrobe being from Topman and (jokingly) complaining about the price of a fireworks effect was really funny to me. It was a quirk that added a bit of personality to the Extremely Safe For Work Phil that we knew back then, before he became comfortable enough to be the chaotic gay that he is now on the AP channel. So yeah, I ran with it. Remember, Phil was often perceived as too innocent and childish. That made the money thing more amusing to me and apparently many others. Nothing bad, just a way of appreciating something about Phil that wasn't sterile and safe.





Anyway, hey look a Dan thing! (together with the wonderful jessica kellgren-fozard)

Oh yay a little viddy! It feels like forever ago that that article was posted. It’s all the same stories, but it’s nice to see both of their faces, Jessica is just really lovely. I didn’t realize until the end that they were in the same video chat. It would have been nice to have seen more of their interaction.

Interesting choice of words “the audience I’ve been given on YouTube”. It was definitely used in a positive sense, not quite “blessed with”, but close. Developed would have been a bit more accurate. I feel like there’s a nuanced conversation about what control a creator has on the draw of their audience, but I’m much too tired to initiate it properly.

Thanks for the Capital£ester history education, Catallena. That was the time period I was just getting involved in fandom and I remember those perceptions of Phil, too funny. Glad we have a more whole (and gayer) person now.

[madzilla84]

The more little things he says like this, the more I feel like Dan’s future youtube content is going to be something along the lines of ‘the content he needed but didn’t have’ when he was young (with respect to sexuality; maaaaybe also mental health but I feel like the book covers that). I know he’s talking about Jessica’s content specifically here but I rally feel like that’s what he might be doing as well, especially given YouTube choosing him for this particular spotlight project thing. I don’t know what sort of angle he’s going to come at it from because he hasn’t dropped any hints about it, but that’s what it feels like it’s gonna be.

[liola]

The one thing that surprised me about this money discussion is the concept of middle class and growing up with wealth.

Like, Italy is different than the UK but it makes me laugh incredibly so seeing someone say dnp could be considered middle class. I mean, my own family is higher middle class and even counting the different currency I can tell you that we would absolutely not be able to spend thousands of $$$ in rent every month. And like, my dad is a doctor, not a millionaire.

It's pointless to use those numbers in the video to prove how much money DNP have because they have a backload of 10 years making up their average payout, they are/were in the preference ad program but most importantly figures change incredibly based on just who you are on youtube, your category, your demographic and a million other things. I also would eat my own foot raw if they didn't set aside a chunk of their income over the years and invested it somewhere. They can absolutely be considered rich, no question in that (although I do agree that I think some people have a skewed vision of just how much)

As for Phil not acting as someone who grow up wealthy.. I believe there's a difference between growing up wealthy with parents who had to work and struggle to get their wealth rather than just be given it. I also never had to work growing up but I still did it because it's good experience, in terms of looking for other jobs and also as personal growth? In my experience people with money, and I mean middle/higher class people not rich millionaires, do not really throw away money in too many unnecessary things. I'd say even the multiple Florida holidays per year would qualify Phil's family as wealthy.


Talking about Phil made me miss him. Where are you Phil. Come back

[inanerat]

Oh yay a little viddy! It feels like forever ago that that article was posted. It’s all the same stories, but it’s nice to see both of their faces, Jessica is just really lovely. I didn’t realize until the end that they were in the same video chat. It would have been nice to have seen more of their interaction.

I can't be 100% sure on this, and I can't find a video of Jessica talking about it from my first quick look through, but from following a variety of people in the Deaf community, it is likely that the online video chat between Dan as a hearing person and Jessica as a Deaf person had some sort of intermediate accessibility stuff going on. Whether that was an interpreter, live captioner or just Jessica's wife sitting off camera and helping repeat/interpret things for her, those sorts of things tend to make conversations slower or more 'stilted' than hearing people are used to. Especially in a quick video like that with very quick cuts and no down time at all basically, it is likely that much of the active conversation wasn't 'active'/fast enough to be used directly, and was instead cut up into clips the way it was, making the interaction not as clear. I'm not saying it was the right editing choice, but I feel like it was a likely choice.

Ofc I may be totally wrong and it was just a straight up random editing choice, but I figured it might be a perspective that some people hadn't considered that I should share, as it was something that I wondered about at the very beginning when Jessica was announced as working with Dan for this youtube thing.

And same, I would love to hear more of their interaction and conversation in a less edited way!

[missemma]

I always kinda assumed they have about as much as a doctor/general practitioner just based off, like, the vibes.

Trust me when I say that Dan and Phil probably made more a month than a GP or Doctor made in a year. No Doctor I work with could afford to rent two flats in central London and still be able to afford other nice things (don’t get me started on how people in the NHS aren’t paid enough).

Dan and Phil are rich. They are not working class they are high class rich motherfuckers.

[alittledizzy]

It's pointless to use those numbers in the video to prove how much money DNP have because they have a backload of 10 years making up their average payout, they are/were in the preference ad program but most importantly figures change incredibly based on just who you are on youtube, your category, your demographic and a million other things. I also would eat my own foot raw if they didn't set aside a chunk of their income over the years and invested it somewhere. They can absolutely be considered rich, no question in that (although I do agree that I think some people have a skewed vision of just how much)

Yes absolutely this. I shared it because it's an interesting concept as an absolute bottom line of what youtube alone could pay, and an interesting look at the views someone with 147k subscribers and a new fanbase gets compared to Dan that hasn't made a video in a year and a half. (Spoiler: probably about the same, or shockingly close). Basically anyone that thinks they don't still make money off youtube and won't continue to indefinitely doesn't understand how youtube works.

But yeah, most importantly, it also doesn't give any indication at all as to what other diversified revenue streams they have.

[Megancita75]

I wonder if part of this discussion might be touching on different ideas of what the word "class" means depending on what country you live in. I'm from America, and terms like working, middle, and high class mostly refer to income but there is some connotations, too, with ideas of a certain kind of identity. But in the UK, do those terms conflate somewhat with the specific aristocratic history of England? Like, when someone might be calling a person in England "middle class" or "high class" does that connote something about their family background/heritage as well, beyond just income? Like, could you have a high income now but be considered "middle class" because your parents and ancestors weren't landed gentry? (this would be somewhat akin to ideas of "new money" and "old money")

[Morganaa]

I always kinda assumed they have about as much as a doctor/general practitioner just based off, like, the vibes.

Trust me when I say that Dan and Phil probably made more a month than a GP or Doctor made in a year. No Doctor I work with could afford to rent two flats in central London and still be able to afford other nice things (don’t get me started on how people in the NHS aren’t paid enough).

Dan and Phil are rich. They are not working class they are high class rich motherfuckers.

You know, thats why i think this discussion aint got no point. Just like some people've been saying, numbers change ALL THE TIME, and trust me when i say it's entirely possible they once may make more than an MD in a year(although i do think you're exaggerating. A lot.), and a month later make less than a cashier at Walmart. Yes, that is possible, even though many of you dont believe that. See, a lot of people think doctors are super rich, which, like you already pointed out is not necessarily true in every case - i think this is basically the same here. You THINK they make multimillions because you see tours, some books, some sponsorships, views and numbers on the internet that in most cases are pulled straight outta ass when it comes to their connection to reality... You see that and that exaggerates your thinkinking on how much money they must have(they pay for 2 flats, they had tours and have designer clothed, they gotta be billionaires, right?) Well, all im saying is IT DONT WORK LIKE THAT IN REAL LIFE. Even rich people, who work for big companies struggle - i know, hard to believe, you're most likely thinking im crazy, but too bad i saw that reality for people working in enterteinment. They always used to build that "im so fucking rich and spoiled" atmosphere around them so now everyone thinks they have to be super rich, because they made themselves look like they are. The truth is you dont know NOTHING until you have it proven on documents. And no, money is not the same as their relationship. Money is the thing people most often get wrong idea on other's income.

And we also have different definitions of "high class rich motherfuckers". Like i said, i dont know, but i HIGHLY doubt they can be put into that one. I believe that in this class, are the people who are proven(not speculated) to be very very rich - and these are typically not youtubers in this circle.
I repeat - we dont know, but id still consider them a working class. Rich working class, but still working class. And about that income - you know that most of what they make dont even go into their pockets, because they have things to pay for, right? I think they are rich and are living comfortably, but not comfortable enough to be able to be living in a huge mansion, with 5 Bugatti Veyrons in the garage and servants everywhere to bring them everything under their nose.
Im surprised it's still goin on, that discussion and people feel the need to say just how rich they think they are, but with no proof. If i wanted to say it all in one sentence it'd be: they are rich, but most of you are exaggerating a lot because you think every single other job dont give you that much money, but workin in entertainment is somehow a fairytaile where when as soon as people start to recognize you and you work with internationat companies, you automatically become a multimillionaire(i already said i cringe when i hear this word...) and make more in a week than you will in your entire life... Im just trying to get you to understand than no entertainer's life is as perfect as they made you believe and they get millions outta nowhere. Thats not the case and i've seen than for myself, on A LOT of examples.
Again, numbers change, proof aint no there. This discussion wont lead us anywhere. They definitely are rich, but most likely not lose-your-shit kinda rich.

I have a big house in Detroit which i bought with the money from my account. Three cars, all runnin smoothly, relatively new, one limited edition in highline, one normal but also in highline and third a standard - doesnt really matter these days if the mark on its grill is premium or not.
Im putting some into my savings account and investing. Im gonna be 24 years old in May and i work as a crime scene investigator as my dayjob - i also have another one, where i take all this, as you probably think, bullshit from as a knowledge. From your way of thinking, im pretty sure im a high class motherfucker and a millionaire too, coz i could afford all of that!I dunno, id just cut it out, people will exaggerate and there aint nothin to do about it, they've been said people like them are all millionaires ovwr and over again, and now they believe they make 10x more in a month than a good md in a year. What you gonna do, let em think their thinkin i guess.

[alittledizzy]

I will definitely say that no one on here nor anywhere I’ve personally seen has said that they’re billionaires. One can have made a few million in their lifetime, invested well, taken advantage or connections, and live their incredibly comfortable rich life on that.

My guess would be that they are worth in the double digit millions. That is an absolute world away from being a billionaire, they are not even remotely comparable, but having multiple millions of dollars is... definitely rich.

[kusunoki masashige]

Doesn‘t multi-millionaire just mean owning 2 million $/£/€ or more? Yeah, I think they definitely have more than that each, and in addition to their new house at that. And they still have an income. Like it was said before, the gaming channel still gets at least 1.5 million views a month from old videos which means a yearly income of 90 000 $ from danandphilgames alone, assuming an average RPM of 5 $ (like in dizzy‘s vid rec). And since they aren‘t braggy show-offs but pretty sensible guys and lead relatively normal lives (apart from the double rent and the occasional fancy holiday), I think they could retire and live a pretty comfortable life without too much hassle.

[lefthandedism]

We are all coming at this from our own perspectives of course, and we all have different experiences of/knowledge about money. And none of what any of us knows necessarily sheds any light on Deppy's situation. Nonetheless, I'll throw in my bit.

I don't know how mortgages work in the UK, but I can state for a fact that in the US one can obtain a mortgage that is not based on "income" per se. That is, if you have sufficiently productive investments, you don't have to prove that you have a certain earned income stream. So it's quite possible that their mortgage is not at all directly related to their YouTube views, but instead is supported by their business income, investments, etc. I think it's safe to say that their finances are not structured like those of a "typical" family with one or two breadwinners and no or modest investments.

[Morganaa]

Well and i dont really think they have double digits millions or even one digit millions likebthis, on their bank account. Basically no, i do not think thet are millionaires, unpopular opinion. Im talking about HAVING these money - net worth is a different thing and a lot of people in there are millionaires. Listen, im not trying to put them down and shove their work into dirt by sayin they're poor(pretty sure they're not). Im just saying a lot of people overestimate this money they have, saying they're "loaded" or are millionaires. I've seen people that others thought had millions too - but in fact they were living outta credit, to afford all the stuff they wanted to show off.
Warning! You're most likely get even more frustrated and think im outta of my software and have screws up in my head loose- i would not be surprised if the house they've bought and renoveting has been acqired through a credit - at least to not put all their money into it at once. This is actually pretty normal.

Heh, as a new user i wanted to fit in and be liked, even though i've never been a super fan of them. Turns out i probably wont be, because i made my mission to explain that reality is reality, not doughbath...

[shan]

The one thing that surprised me about this money discussion is the concept of middle class and growing up with wealth.

This is what I think it comes down to. The only way I think DnP could ever come across as middle class is if the person had grown up in an environment of extreme wealth or not yet started working to earn a living.

I consider myself middle class. I have a good job and earn a good salary, I rent a nice townhouse on my sole income, I can afford to go on international holidays at least once a year and stay in decent hotels (not fancy but not still, not hostels).

Things I can not do as a middle class person: travel business/first class, stay in 5 star hotels near Tokyo Station, rent a penthouse and seperate filming flat in central London while paying downpayment and mortgage on a house, buy designer clothes or even full priced moderate outfits whenever I wanted because I'm usually saving my money for travel, build a new house anywhere near the city in my country (and our prices sure aren't as bad as London).

They're definitely not billionaires, that idea is ridiculous, but my guess would also be double digit millionaires or close to it. They have a lot of other revenue streams apart from videos including a business that they own.

At this point I honestly feel like we're all just beating a dead horse.

[liola]

I really don't have the time not the energy to go in depth on this but I just want to say that at least for the past couple of years the financial statements of their companies, included their own channels that they incorporated, are public and viewable. As someone who has worked in the business side of that industry, I can say they are definitely millionaires. Whether or not they have a total of 1mill plus in a single bank account is irrelevant, especially because it's never a good idea. It's pretty easy to calculate an estimate of just their yearly costs of living and an even with a lowball estimate of income we get a pretty hefty number. Let's not forget they were two of the top creators during the youtube advertisement boom.

Also I don't understand if buying a house with credit is the same as getting a mortgage but I think getting a mortgage is just.. the most common choice? At least in Europe I guess, like I think it's just practical.

No one here is hating you btw, this forum is made up of discussions with different opinions all the time it just seems like you don't have a lot of information on them in particular and are basing it a lot on your own personal experience of life, which is pretty normal. Everyone here knows what reality is like but it's also.. kind of easy to see an Apple for an Apple


Okay I can't quote but last thought on this: I don't think DnP get any of the revenue from IRL and it seems like I'm not that wrong. I think most profit go to pay their employees/Martyn and just business investment

[kusunoki masashige]

Like Liola said, you aren‘t just a millionaire if you have that amount in your bank account, I think most definitions include all financial assets. If you have £500 000 cash and three million £ in ETFs, you‘re still a millionaire.

I think with how low interest rates are nowadays it can be beneficial to get a loan/mortgage even though you could free that kind of money. But i could imagine Phil being pretty cautious with these things, I know I would want to own my house fully right from the start if possible. But then again Capita£ester...

[Matgo]

Well and i dont really think they have double digits millions or even one digit millions likebthis, on their bank account. Basically no, i do not think thet are millionaires, unpopular opinion. Im talking about HAVING these money - net worth is a different thing and a lot of people in there are millionaires

The last accounts filed by AmazingPhil Ltd show £3,116,666 cash in the bank and Dan Howell Ltd £3,121,453. They are absolutely millionaires.

[missemma]

I’m using my phone to reply to you so sorry if the quotes get kind of messed up.

You know, thats why i think this discussion aint got no point. Just like some people've been saying, numbers change ALL THE TIME, and trust me when i say it's entirely possible they once may make more than an MD in a year(although i do think you're exaggerating. A lot.), and a month later make less than a cashier at Walmart. Yes, that is possible, even though many of you dont believe that. See, a lot of people think doctors are super rich, which, like you already pointed out is not necessarily true in every case - i think this is basically the same here.

Could you explain why you think I am exaggerating? I think we may be coming from this from different perspectives because in the UK doctors range from different grades.

For example, let’s take the Stereo liveshow they did. If you look at the leaderboard, Phil was always at the top as he pulls in a good audience. When him and Dan were on it they both got $9000 between them for one 40 minute show in one week (Phil got $5k and Dan $4). On top of this they also did another after show party where they got the same money, plus the income generated from the YouTube video Phil then put up. A Doctor (in the UK) earns around £3-4k a month.

You THINK they make multimillions

I didn’t once specify that they make “multimillions”. I said they are “upper class rich motherfuckers”. They are rich and if you can’t see that I am actually shocked. I’ll go into that below though.

You see that and that exaggerates your thinkinking on how much money they must have(they pay for 2 flats, they had tours and have designer clothed, they gotta be billionaires, right?)

Yes, they paid for two flats WHILST building their own house. They had two flats in central London which we’re not one bedroom “shoeboxes” as Dan put it. They are modern large apartments. It actually made me laugh that Dan even thinks that flat is small.

If you think that paying what they did per month, plus being able to afford to build a house, from scratch, means they are working class then I’m sorry, but in England that is totally inaccurate. They are wealthy.

There are other examples we could use to look at why I think they are rich. Their holidays; well they aren’t a weekend trip to anywhere in England are they. Shall we talk about the first class flights (and I’m not talking about the ones for work) or the trips to Japan that they took. I remember Phil saying he just randomly booked it on a whim as they had wanted to go (lucky him, let me just save up for 2 years to be able to afford a flight, just a normal seat). Shall we look at the 5* hotel they stayed in, and the expensive restaurants they went to on that trip. Look at Dan, gets to America and he can’t stay so okay he’ll just decide to book a last minute ticket from Florida to Bahamas last minute because he messed his visa up. I assume you’re looking at more than €150 to do that? Could anyone else, who is working class, just be able to do that? I certainly couldn’t unless I wanted to be in debt and I make good money with no commitments other than my rent and a car.

Well, all im saying is IT DONT WORK LIKE THAT IN REAL LIFE. Even rich people, who work for big companies struggle - i know, hard to believe, you're most likely thinking im crazy, but too bad i saw that reality for people working in enterteinment. They always used to build that "im so fucking rich and spoiled" atmosphere around them so now everyone thinks they have to be super rich, because they made themselves look like they are. The truth is you dont know NOTHING until you have it proven on documents. And no, money is not the same as their relationship. Money is the thing people most often get wrong idea on other's income.

I’m not quite sure what your point is here. I don’t think anyone (certainly not me) is saying they don’t struggle. Dan and Phil are extremely clever businessmen. They don’t get their money and throw it out of the window. No one is disputing that at all.

And we also have different definitions of "high class rich motherfuckers". Like i said, i dont know, but i HIGHLY doubt they can be put into that one.

And that’s fine. The good thing about forums is that it’s okay to disagree. You can have your opinion and I can have mine. It sparks conversation and that is fun and what we are here for. We are all adults and can take discussion like this, it’s what makes the forum interesting.

Im surprised it's still goin on, that discussion and people feel the need to say just how rich they think they are, but with no proof. If i wanted to say it all in one sentence it'd be: they are rich, but most of you are exaggerating a lot because you think every single other job dont give you that much money, but workin in entertainment is somehow a fairytaile where when as soon as people start to recognize you and you work with internationat companies, you automatically become a multimillionaire(i already said i cringe when i hear this word...) and make more in a week than you will in your entire life... Im just trying to get you to understand than no entertainer's life is as perfect as they made you believe and they get millions outta nowhere. Thats not the case and i've seen than for myself, on A LOT of examples.

Personally I don’t think working in entertainment is a fairytale, it would be my worst nightmare tbh. But I’m going to stick with my original statement, they are rich and I’m sorry to say that no amount of discussion will make me change my mind. I don’t even thinks it’s wrong that they are rich. They worked hard, they know how to work their audience, they know how to hype us and like I said above they are good businessmen. Good luck to them.

[dontpanic]

I guess I don't really care about this conversation because to me there's (1) normal working class people, (2) people with granite countertops, and (3) people with an immoral amount of wealth who own shell corporations, use their money to disproportionally influence our political climate, and built their fortune on generational wealth accumulated by the suppression and exploitation of the working class. I always viewed deppy as #2 which is a fun category to dunk on for being out of touch with the majority of the population but otherwise I'm like, whatever you know? Dan's a champagne socialist who sometimes uses his platform to promote good causes and they're otherwise inoffensive and don't seem to take their money for granted so... knowing their current wealth status is interesting and yeah they're richer than most of us probably but they're not like, immorally rich. They do got the granite countertops and a kitchen island though

I guess my perspective is that I grew up in a 'working-poor' neighborhood and now work at a research division where we're basically documenting the consequences of citizens united, so the difference between upper middle-class and rich people who got rich from, like, working in entertainment seems like semantics

I think we could all probably agree they're somewhere between the top 1% of wage earners but somewhere below the top .01%, and since they're not recipients of generational wealth (aside from the privileges growing up in middle-to-upper class white families) I'd say even with smart investments they couldn't complete with actual old-money types, not that it matters because they're still way more than comfortable to put it plainly. Again, though, I'm coming at this from a US perspective, wealth seems to be treated even colloquially different in the UK

I always kinda assumed they have about as much as a doctor/general practitioner just based off, like, the vibes.

Trust me when I say that Dan and Phil probably made more a month than a GP or Doctor made in a year. No Doctor I work with could afford to rent two flats in central London and still be able to afford other nice things (don’t get me started on how people in the NHS aren’t paid enough).

Dan and Phil are rich. They are not working class they are high class rich motherfuckers.

I'm in the US where the mean salary of a doctor in the United States is $313,000/year annually, they tend to be in the top 1% of wage earners especially if they're specialists or located in affluent cities. I used to work at martha's vineyard a few summers in college and a lot of the people with second or third homes there were doctors, lawyers, or hedge fund manager/stockbroker types.

with privatized healthcare and a tax system disproportionally benefiting the 1% doctors are quite wealthy here, but I wasn't even thinking about the UK which you're right, Dan and Phil totally outearn

[missemma]

I'm in the US where the mean salary of a doctor in the United States is $313,000/year annually, they tend to be in the top 1% of wage earners especially if they're specialists or located in affluent cities. I used to work at martha's vineyard a few summers in college and a lot of the people with second or third homes there were doctors, lawyers, or hedge fund manager/stockbroker types.

with privatized healthcare and a tax system disproportionally benefiting the 1% doctors are quite wealthy here, but I wasn't even thinking about the UK which you're right, Dan and Phil totally outearn

I am genuinely shocked, no wonder it seemed like I may have been exaggerating (my figures btw are for NHS Doctors).

(how much do nurses make, I’m coming over haha).

[shan]

I'm in the US where the mean salary of a doctor in the United States is $313,000/year annually, they tend to be in the top 1% of wage earners especially if they're specialists or located in affluent cities. I used to work at martha's vineyard a few summers in college and a lot of the people with second or third homes there were doctors, lawyers, or hedge fund manager/stockbroker types.

with privatized healthcare and a tax system disproportionally benefiting the 1% doctors are quite wealthy here, but I wasn't even thinking about the UK which you're right, Dan and Phil totally outearn

I am genuinely shocked, no wonder it seemed like I may have been exaggerating (my figures btw are for NHS Doctors).

(how much do nurses make, I’m coming over haha).

That's an obscene amount of money! My perspective was coming from Australia where we have a similar health care system to the NHS and doctors for the most part aren't outrageously wealthy.

The one part of this debate I find interesting is the comment about old money. Is there maybe some perception in the UK that if you don't come from a notable family and have a castle somewhere in your lineage you aren't considered rich? I'm really interested in the vehement refusal of people saying that they aren't wealthy. Obviously it effects none of our lives but I'm honestly so baffled at the idea that anyone could consider the way they live to be normal for the average person, as middle class implies. I might actually have to see if there's been any research on perceived wealth and background, I'm intrigued now.

[noodlebum]

Just popping my two cents in, in the UK there's still the concept of 'old money' and 'new money' when it comes to class, I feel. Being rich doesn't instantly mean 'high class'.

Money and class are separate things. They are rich, but due to their backgrounds they aren't 'high class' - barely anyone is.

Then again, the concept of class and it's classification changes constantly and there's many different ways to measure it which might put them in a modern 'elite' category. I don't know man.

[Birdie]

I'm really interested in the vehement refusal of people saying that they aren't wealthy. Obviously it effects none of our lives but I'm honestly so baffled at the idea that anyone could consider the way they live to be normal for the average person, as middle class implies.

I think it's a lot to do with wanting them to stay relatable. A lot of people discover them via their relatable content from 2012-2016-ish and learning that they're rich now might cause some cognitive dissonance because it's very obvious they're loaded but you want them to stay your friendly boy next door who is just like you Youtubers. They obviously aren't that but that's what Youtube fame was about for quite some time so I do understand why people are reluctant to admit their faves don't fit that image anymore. At the same time I think it's become pretty obvious a long while ago that they have money and it will only have multiplied since then. I mean, when did Dan start buying exclusively designer clothes that cost more than I make in a year? It's been years and the "this was given to me" story never really added up.

I don't really care how rich they really are and how many millions they have in their bank accounts but it's pretty clear they're rich enough to live very comfortably. Spontaneous first class trips to Japan, two central London flats while building their own house, even not having to think twice about buying expensive stuff like new iPhones, game consoles etc. that most of us would have to save up for. To (kinda) quote Ariana Grande, they want it, they get it. That's the definition of wealth in my opinion, so yes, obviously they're wealthy.

I do really think a lot of fans are reluctant to let go this idea of Dan and Phil as two normal boys doing YouTube as a hobby and that's where not wanting them to be rich comes from. But they're businessmen and professional entertainers and they have been for a long time and that's okay.

[Levitating]

Although it's certainly amusing to see my little input has created so much conversation (wow!), my point was more about the perception of childish-resentment (?) I feel comes from Tumblr-users who seem to find strange - and thus a point to debate - that DnP are promoting some brand/their own (especially when Phil does it). The perception I had was that those people were saying, between the lines, "look at them asking for more money when they are already rich without this extra #spon" - and the only ones who could say this are (1) people who don't know what a job is so they are really young or (2) adult people who live some kind of socialist life (which is difficult in most current societies, simply because capitalism exists in your own favourite, independent book-shop nearby).

I understand now that those users here who have participated in the CapitalLester thing were doing it just for fun - thank you for explaining! -, so I hope that those are ones outside of this forum feel the same! It is completing healthy to be able to criticise them - to make fun of them -, and I would encourage people to keep doing it, because everyone needs to exercise critical thinking with whatever they're engaging with.

I agree with those who affirm that (1) we can't be sure about their financial/asset status, (2) definition of what constitute as rich derives from our own personal upbringing.

I guess I would criticise them passionately if I were to discover that they are paying their employees a minimum wage*, they discriminate (I have seen one person of colour in their team), they do not give their employee space to growth or stability when it comes to maternity etc.
*I don't know how it is in the USA, but in the UK it is extremely difficult to violate employment laws by paying less than the minimum wage, so paying it is a basic standard nobody is impressed by. Usually the working class at the bottom of the line receives minimum wage, so the poor. I'd say DnP's businesses, seeing how much gets to them, is in a position to be fairer with their employees and pay more than minimum wage. I expect it from them.

[lefthandedism]

I guess I would criticise them passionately if I were to discover that they are paying their employees a minimum wage*, they discriminate (I have seen one person of colour in their team), they do not give their employee space to growth or stability when it comes to maternity etc.

I think this is a very good point. I agree that how one treats one's employees makes a very strong ethical statement. We have never heard of any complaint from any of their employees, but I would certainly be very disappointed if it turned out that they were treating their employees poorly, including paying them minimum, or minimal, wage.

(I briefly worked for a church, and was shocked when, despite being thrilled by my hard work, they "couldn't afford" to give me a raise above minimum, despite supposedly having a mission to support "the community".)

So yeah, I don't think it's greedy to make money on YouTube ads or merch or whatever, but it's certainly greedy if you are ungenerous toward the people who work for you.