IDB

daphenaxa wrote:

jaej wrote:

daphenaxa wrote:

bluebox-away wrote:

jaej wrote:why the fuck are they using japanese characters on their merch wtf you don't get to use a country's culture as part of your ~brand~ wtf is this shit. oooh wow it's so cool and kawaii and crazy look!!!! its asian that makes it cool!!! i saw an anime and went to japan one time it's so cool!!!!!! i thought they were above this now smh

What does it say? I don't think it is bad tbh. It's like all the t-shirts with French phrases that everyone seems to wear in USA or the ones with English writings we all wear in countries where we don't speak English. It's a japhan themed shirt so it makes sense to use Japanese characters, it's not stealing Japanese culture. I disagree it's culture appropriation here.

just dan and phil afaik. it doesn't make sense because it doesn't make sense to make the shirt at all to make sure japan firmly stays as part of the brand. they treat it the way they treat any phandom meme or joke like it isn't a country that actually has people and a culture and isn't just for them. there's no reason to use japanese characters for any reason other than they thought it looked cool, when it's a language with a rich, positive and negative history, not a fashion statement to suit their aesthetic. we've heard their pronunciations, they don't know the slightest thing about japanese language, let alone the culture that isn't anime

I don't see how writing Dan and Phil in Japanese (even just because it looks beautiful) negates or denies the fact Japan is a real country with real people and Japanese language has a rich history. I agree they don't know Japanese culture well but I also think it is true they are attracted to Japanese culture or I guess some part of it and to the country itself, even if you think they are for the wrong reasons.

if they think that then they can learn more about the language and culture from people who actually know it, not just profit from it.

leafy wrote:
Do we let them off if the image on the t-shirts is from Japan?

it's up to you, but personally i still don't like it. they're still promoting this as a Dan And Phil thing in a way the wouldn't for a trip to greece or america. they make japan seem like it's crazy and bizarre so it fits the brand, and it promotes the idea to 14 year olds on tumblr that being "into japan" is a thing you can say when you like sports anime and kpop groups japanese releases

Personally I am more disturbed by the image on the shirts where one figure appears to be saluting, I know nothing about the military traditions, but it makes me side-eye their choice. Could just be shielding eyes from the sun, but...all I see is a salute. And I would not compare army camo and a figure saluting on merch as equal 'appropriation'. But that's just me.

some thoughts on the cultural appropriation thing from someone who's definitely not neither an expert nor a spokesperson but has studied it for some time & wants to share a few bits
1) it's an entirely valid thing to bring up & a valid feeling to have & it's good to voice your thoughts and have these conversations
2) cultural exchange is a much different thing when the power dynamic has been messed up by history, so yeah, western people adopting japanese texts is different than japanese ppl using western languages on their designs. and the ever-brewing culture of fetishization of japanese culture that in many ways fuels stereotypes and denies complexity makes this even more complicated
3) that being said, when we're talking about cultural appropriation, many people honestly believe that the intent & the way you go about it matters. for starters, the intent here seems to be a) commemorating their history, which now japan is a part of, it seems to have been really significant for them to go there, at a really huge point in their lives, and it's commemorated in their book, aka the thing literally marketed as the one thing that will be left after the meteor hits/aka they die b) it's also tying to them wanting to make their merch possible to wear in public, so the text in a language that most of their GA doesn't speak insures secret fandoming in public c) cultural exhange gone wrong (=appropriation), at least to me, feels like something that dismisses the cultural roots and tries to claim them as their own. now, money does make this a bit iffy, but I honestly don't think that's what they were doing? like it's them in japan, not them claiming japan, if that makes sense. it does neither ridicule nor belittle, and for me, that does make a difference. It isn't meant to represent Japan as a whole country with a huge culture and complicated history, but the significance it has to D&P's narrative and the fan's relationship with it

phamnotof wrote: 2) cultural exchange is a much different thing when the power dynamic has been messed up by history, so yeah, western people adopting japanese texts is different than japanese ppl using western languages on their designs. and the ever-brewing culture of fetishization of japanese culture that in many ways fuels stereotypes and denies complexity makes this even more complicated

you said this must better than I could Like, literally, I was just going to write "look up orientalism pls" but yeah. The D&P shirts, which I think is a complicated issue on both sides, are not at all the same to t-shirts that use the french language or whatever.

phamnotof wrote:some thoughts on the cultural appropriation thing from someone who's definitely not neither an expert nor a spokesperson but has studied it for some time & wants to share a few bits
1) it's an entirely valid thing to bring up & a valid feeling to have & it's good to voice your thoughts and have these conversations
2) cultural exchange is a much different thing when the power dynamic has been messed up by history, so yeah, western people adopting japanese texts is different than japanese ppl using western languages on their designs. and the ever-brewing culture of fetishization of japanese culture that in many ways fuels stereotypes and denies complexity makes this even more complicated
3) that being said, when we're talking about cultural appropriation, many people honestly believe that the intent & the way you go about it matters. for starters, the intent here seems to be a) commemorating their history, which now japan is a part of, it seems to have been really significant for them to go there, at a really huge point in their lives, and it's commemorated in their book, aka the thing literally marketed as the one thing that will be left after the meteor hits/aka they die b) it's also tying to them wanting to make their merch possible to wear in public, so the text in a language that most of their GA doesn't speak insures secret fandoming in public c) cultural exhange gone wrong (=appropriation), at least to me, feels like something that dismisses the cultural roots and tries to claim them as their own. now, money does make this a bit iffy, but I honestly don't think that's what they were doing? like it's them in japan, not them claiming japan, if that makes sense. it does neither ridicule nor belittle, and for me, that does make a difference. It isn't meant to represent Japan as a whole country with a huge culture and complicated history, but the significance it has to D&P's narrative and the fan's relationship with it

I agree with this.

teamug wrote:Personally I am more disturbed by the image on the shirts where one figure appears to be saluting, I know nothing about the military traditions, but it makes me side-eye their choice. Could just be shielding eyes from the sun, but...all I see is a salute. And I would not compare army camo and a figure saluting on merch as equal 'appropriation'. But that's just me.

Actually I thought the same thing...it looks a lot like a military salute that has absolutely nothing to do with them, but probably it's just Phil shielding from the sun....anyway the doubt is there.

I don't feel bad about the Japan theme of the t-shirt and sweater, of course we can accuse them of cultural appropriation, but the Japan trip has been probably the highlight of last year.
As long as they understand that Japan is a REAL country with REAL tradition etc for me it's ok.
My concerns are addressed to some fans, maybe younger, (and I'm not saying that they're stupid of whatever) that need to understand the same thing: Japan culture is not just cherry blossom, anime and kanji writing.

the best new item is, without a doubt, the poster....especially the two top pics #powercouple....

and thanks rizzo for the HD version

Omg, phamnotof, thank you SO much I was trying to write a long and articulate response to daphenaxa and it was taking me far too long and I wasn't quite able to put my thoughts across the way that I'd like to. You did most of the work for me with your post. I completely agree with your points 1) and 2) and mostly with point 3).
About point 3): yeah, intent is absolutely vital aaaaand... their intent is partly questionable or misjudged to me. Money + as you've put it, possible "fetishization of japanese culture" just make me... idk, slightly uncomfortable?

And to make it clear: I don't see it as completely deplorable or anything like that. Just... questionable

Should they not use the American flag on their tour merch then? Because just going on tour in America shouldn't let them use the emblem of a country/culture they are not a part of?

Honestly, I'm not sure. I guess it depends how exactly the'd use it because I think it's a fine line. I'd have to see the exact item. I don't believe that you absolutely can't use any imagery assosiated with a country different than that of your origin. But I also believe that you have to be really careful while doing that and not every image or symbol can be used freely.

And [offtopic]

daphenaxa wrote:Honestly I write in cyrillic here

the Cyrillic alphabet came to my mind because I still remember learning Russian in school and failing miserably because I just couldn't learn the cyrillic characters and remember them for more than 2 hours [/offtopic]

hunnyftw wrote:Omg, phamnotof, thank you SO much I was trying to write a long and articulate response to daphenaxa and it was taking me far too long and I wasn't quite able to put my thoughts across the way that I'd like to. You did most of the work for me with your post. I completely agree with your points 1) and 2) and mostly with point 3).
About point 3): yeah, intent is absolutely vital aaaaand... their intent is partly questionable or misjudged to me. Money + as you've put it, possible "fetishization of japanese culture" just make me... idk, slightly uncomfortable?

And to make it clear: I don't see it as completely deplorable or anything like that. Just... questionable

Yeah, the only way I wouldn't question this decision is if I found out that they actually got engaged in Japan (married, too, but that's more unlikely).

hunnyftw wrote:About point 3): yeah, intent is absolutely vital aaaaand... their intent is partly questionable or misjudged to me. Money + as you've put it, possible "fetishization of japanese culture" just make me... idk, slightly uncomfortable?

And to make it clear: I don't see it as completely deplorable or anything like that. Just... questionable

*nods* I can see that very much, yeah. I can definitely see it as misjudged, because despite the fact that I'm in a place of privilege as I know their history, the signigficance of that time in their lives & the fact that they've made it a part of their narrative in a really lovely way (imo, again) - not everyone is that close & perception matters, too, so I think they could have made a japhan-commemorating t-shirt that would raise less questions & wouldn't have the potential of making people uncomfortable with it. but then I've also read many stories of japanese fans of D&P who loved their japan vacation & feel more seen for them having loved their country & actually visited more than anime stores & (most importantly) introduced japanese vloggers and had japanese people as their guides through the culture, which always lessens the appropriation vibe significantly - and that matters, too, so as anything, it's pretty complex & at least to me, the most important part is that it doesn't feel like they're intentionally mocking or claiming the culture as their own

jhamba wrote:

hunnyftw wrote:Omg, phamnotof, thank you SO much I was trying to write a long and articulate response to daphenaxa and it was taking me far too long and I wasn't quite able to put my thoughts across the way that I'd like to. You did most of the work for me with your post. I completely agree with your points 1) and 2) and mostly with point 3).
About point 3): yeah, intent is absolutely vital aaaaand... their intent is partly questionable or misjudged to me. Money + as you've put it, possible "fetishization of japanese culture" just make me... idk, slightly uncomfortable?

And to make it clear: I don't see it as completely deplorable or anything like that. Just... questionable

Yeah, the only way I wouldn't question this decision is if I found out that they actually got engaged in Japan (married, too, but that's more unlikely).

married is entirely unlikely as that's entirely illegal - a ceremony would be possible, yes, but I tend to think that if anything, it was an engagement

phamnotof wrote:at least to me, the most important part is that it doesn't feel like they're intentionally mocking or claiming the culture as their own

well I can agree that they're most probably not trying to ridicule the culture; if I felt they were, I would be using the same language as jaej did

And thank you again wow am i stanning you tonight, or what for mentioning deppy possibly setting a good example by visiting many places in Japan, having Japanese guides etc. It's an interesting point and a silver lining.

[offtopic]Hey, I created a "Compilations and Reference" forum where I've put Phil's February Dailybooth posts and Deppy's Tumblr likes. Feel free to comment on both of those topics there if you so desire! [/offtopic]
http://indepthbants.com/forum26.html

jhamba wrote:Yeah, the only way I wouldn't question this decision is if I found out that they actually got engaged in Japan (married, too, but that's more unlikely).

Apparently it's their 'anniversary' :



Agree with what phamnotof said regarding merch. Especially 2) - that's why the example with American band making merch with cyrillic doesn't work the same way.

Love the photobooth poster, much cute.

Forgive me, but I'm totally calling dibs on this avi.

As for whether the shirt is cultural appropriation, I don't feel like I have any right to speak on it, but I'm not a fan of the shirt as a whole. There's so much more they could have done to promote their brand, a lot of which doesn't involve pulling a culture they have little to do with into it. On top of which, I don't like the silhouettes or the fact that they're off-center. Just.... I don't like it at all for any reason.

Dan, where is your #symmetry/#aesthetic? Because I'm not seein' it here.

/way harsh tai.

Their cheeks are touching.

vincentian wrote:Especially 2) - that's why the example with American band making merch with cyrillic doesn't work the same way.

I'm not from Russia, just from Eastern Europe close to Russia, so I can't be absolutely sure about the USA/Russia power dynamic although I do think I have a general idea. So let me rephrase that: it would be like a USA band using something from my region/country. In my country I can definitely see an inferiority complex towards the Western Europe and the USA. And I won't go into details (because boring and too complicated) but it's definitely a case of "the power dynamic messed up by history".

I would say it's a tricky situation, personally i don't think it's full on culture appropriation, but definitely inappropriate use. (Btw Phil better not be saluting, otherwise shit is hitting the fan and they will be offending the majority of east asia and southeast asia)

On one hand as offensive as it is, part of their brand is literally two giant weeaboos, so the text on the t shirt can be justifiable cuz they are using it ironically.

On the other hand as two weeaboos already, further exoticize Japanese trip is just a no no under any circumstances.

Ummmmm yeah, not sure about this. Generally, the whole thing doesn't seem like the best idea, especially the part where this is merchandise...

Nice photobooth pictures, though! They are quite similar to those with Cat, look comfortable being so close here, as well.

Kathrynxjane wrote:

rizzo wrote:I am not feelin' the apparel, but the keyring is cute. The poster's the best bit, but IDK.... why buy it when you can just pull the HD version from the site's source. heh.

here you go.

New laptop background

I'm not a photoshop expert by any means, but because the image wasn't the right dimensions, I adjusted/played around with it for my desktop. Here's the results if anyone would like it as well. It is 1280 x 800.

Won't work well if all your screenshots or documents are cluttered on your desktop (like mine). Also I totally highlighted my favorite picture. But yeah, if you are interested.

Not going to join in with this conversation because I have nothing to say about it and I would probably end up offending someone anyway

greatnessflicker wrote:

Kathrynxjane wrote:

rizzo wrote:I am not feelin' the apparel, but the keyring is cute. The poster's the best bit, but IDK.... why buy it when you can just pull the HD version from the site's source. heh.

here you go.

New laptop background

I'm not a photoshop expert by any means, but because the image wasn't the right dimensions, I adjusted/played around with it for my desktop. Here's the results if anyone would like it as well. It is 1280 x 800.

Won't work well if all your desktop screenshots are cluttered on the right (the way mac does it, like mine). Also I totally highlighted my favorite picture. But yeah, if you are interested.

Fits perfectly thank you!

hunnyftw wrote:

vincentian wrote:Especially 2) - that's why the example with American band making merch with cyrillic doesn't work the same way.

I'm not from Russia, just from Eastern Europe close to Russia, so I can't be absolutely sure about the USA/Russia power dynamic although I do think I have a general idea. So let me rephrase that: it would be like a USA band using something from my region/country. In my country I can definitely see an inferiority complex towards the Western Europe and the USA. And I won't go into details (because boring and too complicated) but it's definitely a case of "the power dynamic messed up by history".

Yeah, I wasn't contradicting you. Just USA/Eastern Europe and England/Japan have clearly different dynamics, don't they? So people are more likely to accept that cyrillic is being used in USA band merch, because they will feel good that their culture was acknowledged, even though it would still be appropriation. Obviously, it's much more complicated subject and there are various social, political, economical factors involved and different perspectives are possible. Speaking from a perspective of cyrillic alphabet user.

vincentian wrote:

jhamba wrote:Yeah, the only way I wouldn't question this decision is if I found out that they actually got engaged in Japan (married, too, but that's more unlikely).

Apparently it's their 'anniversary' :



Agree with what phamnotof said regarding merch. Especially 2) - that's why the example with American band making merch with cyrillic doesn't work the same way.

Love the photobooth poster, much cute.

That is super cute.

You all have made so many great points already (especially phamnotof), I'm here just to agree with the 'is a tricky situation' part.

While if this image was just a fanart I would look at it and not even think twice, just think it was cute and "aww phan in japan great times" BUT this is merch and they are making money on some aspects of the culture. So, I don't really know where I stand, but all in all it doesn't sit very well with me.

off topic but i checked the guest list for playlist and found out rose and rosie are attending (and i hope vloging) so now all i want is at least 5 seconds of them and deppy together

lol why am i so fixated with r&r and d&p becoming friends

vincentian wrote:Yeah, I wasn't contradicting you.

Oh, ok. And thank you for clarifying what you meant. I think now I understand you better