Dan & Phil Part 45: R.I.P danisnotonfire 2009-2017

[teamug]

[quote="Ashling Rae"][offtopic]PJ handled it very gracefully and the best way he possibly could, but it got me thinking about how phan shippers seem to be mocked so much in the YouTube community, and I'm just dying to discuss more. I considered this morning that people may find it laughable when they don't know all the details and haven't done the research like some more dedicated fans have (whether the act of doing research is a positive or not). I guess I'm just wondering what makes phan shippers so much more worthy of ridicule (according to some) than fans of other ships. Is it because we as a collective have undoubtedly taken it too far in the past? Because we come across more passionate/serious about it than other fandoms? Maybe that they find the pairing in general laughable or problematic? Just kinda makes me sad for them, because they don't know the joy of phan. Idk, chime in if anyone else is interested in discussing this.[/offtopic][/quote]

I think it has to do with seeking attention. The phandom is sizable, and online it is mostly young'uns. They are provocable, and they rally troops quickly to their aid when attacked. So if a ytubers wants 'fame', 'notoriety', 'sympathy from other mature creators', browbeating a group of teens is a good way to go. Because it's cool to be individual and not part of the phandom.

[VengefulBlue]

throwaway if you're trying to get some speculation going about Phil having a wife or girlfriend, I'm sorry to have to be the one to tell you that she recently died in a freak roof collapse accident so maybe give the man some time to grieve adequately, ok?

yeah really how insensitive can you be??

[onetruetrash]

y'all are too much

[autumnhearth]

Re: Bedrooms I feel like neither bedrooms are (or have ever been) "beardrooms", per se. I feel like it is beneficial for multiple reasons to have their own rooms and their own beds, and it doesn't necessarily change my opinion of their relationship. My guess though would be that they regularly share a bed, but they might change up which bed they use depending on lots of different things, ie, which room needs to be clean for filming tomorrow, which bed sheets are in the wash and they can't be arsed to dry them, etc. They also probably do sleep separately, either also regularly or only on occasion, for reasons already listed.

I do agree with this assessment for the old apartment, I'm just trying to figure out the arrangement in their new place. Which I suppose transitions nicely into the new topic re phandom and shipping real people. To which I just want to say, yes it is ridiculous, we are ridiculous, the YouTube comments are definitely ridiculous (I what someone said about it changing when taken in context of the time line and voldy) I am certainly ridiculous and that's fine. This is a good place and I'm happy. I'm also a hypocrite. Less than a year ago I was super bothered by fans shipping the two actors who play Albus and Scorpius in Harry Potter and the Cursed Child, like visibly @ them on Twitter about it, (when one had a girlfriend), which I will stand by is crossing the line, but then again I used to read fanfic and make collages of the LotRs actors when I was in high school and here I am now.

[Ashling Rae]

I didn't expect so many people to be so into discussing the phan ship hate! I feel like everyone had really on point responses and everyone was pretty well in-line.

2. we've taken it too far in the past. we take it too far now. phans tweet at deppy and demand they get married, get pets, have kids. as a collective, we are still overstepping our bounds daily, still being creepy af. ....... by presenting phan shippers as crazy people, or overzealous, or perverts, they make their own fans back off. if their fans act the way we do, those youtubers will not like them, the fans will be mocked as mercilessly as we are. by using phan shippers as a joke, they're protected from the intense scrutiny and over-analysis deppy deal with.

To point 2. Touche. Just.. Touche. It may be because I have tried to surround myself with a certain corner of the phandom that doesn't do this, so I didn't really consider it, but yeah, true. And to the rest of it, really good point. Don't you love to be made an example of? /sarcasm

To which I just want to say, yes it is ridiculous, we are ridiculous, the YouTube comments are definitely ridiculous (I what someone said about it changing when taken in context of the time line and voldy) I am certainly ridiculous and that's fine. This is a good place and I'm happy. I'm also a hypocrite.

I feel like this section of your reply sums up my feelings on it all very well. Particularly, "I'm also a hypocrite". I agree that we've gone too far and it's all honestly, really disrespectful. And I'm not without guilt here either. Sure, maybe I've never tweeted at them directly about phan, or shared voldy, or nearly stalked them and taken creep-shot pictures and photoshopped them to look like they're holding hands.. But I've definitely commented about phan on their videos in the past, and sometimes it's the little things like that when multiplied by millions of people not totally overstepping bounds that adds up to the worst of it. I try to comment on the work and content of their videos whenever possible now.

[throwaway]

throwaway if you're trying to get some speculation going about Phil having a wife or girlfriend, I'm sorry to have to be the one to tell you that she recently died in a freak roof collapse accident so maybe give the man some time to grieve adequately, ok?

I am not, I was just curious.

If they get in a relationship then its their choice to come out about it.

[saffarinda]

I just wanna mention that I think one of the things with younger phan shippers is that they see other youtubers talking about dan and phil and instantly begin to like them (CrankThatFrank, I think his name is, as an example). So smaller youtubers often begin growing audiences through Dan and Phil; although they may not have an audience dedicated to them, they still have an audience. I feel like as a result, many younger members feel entitled to go around talking about Dan and Phil on EVERY video.

Dan briefly mentioned with the dnpCRAFTS memes not to spam other youtubers comments section, but I can imagine youtubers going to their comments expecting discussions relating to themselves or the video only to find that fans of these two guys are just spamming them - it's understandable that they'd be annoyed. If they had no great knowledge regarding them prior, they may find the shipping of them ridiculous - especially if they've only been exposed to the younger half of Dan and Phil's audience.

Also, I find it amusing that some people loathe shipping so much, when it's not just an internet thing. The term "shipping" came from the internet, but how many magazines or news papers ship celebrities all the time? Although, shipping on the internet is a lot more consuming in comparison to shipping irl - more people to relate to, more easily you become obsessed.

I'm fairly tired so these are all just rambles rn, anyone feel free to correct me if I said anything wrong, or something that doesn't make sense

edit: I'm finally a spork! hallelujah

[jesuisunèléve]

[offtopic]I was watching PJ's live show the other day and a fan messaged asking "What should I do about all the phan shippers?" (He uploaded this live show, the "Edgar Titan" or something like that, when PJ responds like "I'm not sure that's appropriate to talk about on the live show, but thanks..." that's what the question was.) PJ handled it very gracefully and the best way he possibly could, but it got me thinking about how phan shippers seem to be mocked so much in the YouTube community, and I'm just dying to discuss more. I considered this morning that people may find it laughable when they don't know all the details and haven't done the research like some more dedicated fans have (whether the act of doing research is a positive or not). I guess I'm just wondering what makes phan shippers so much more worthy of ridicule (according to some) than fans of other ships. Is it because we as a collective have undoubtedly taken it too far in the past? Because we come across more passionate/serious about it than other fandoms? Maybe that they find the pairing in general laughable or problematic? Just kinda makes me sad for them, because they don't know the joy of phan. Idk, chime in if anyone else is interested in discussing this.[/offtopic]

I think some people find it an invasion of privacy and an overreach of boundaries. Some people also think it's indulging sexual fantasy, straight-girls are often ridiculed for their gay male ships. While that discussion is a whole other thing in itself, the fact remains that everybody who may be inclined to ship are all lumped into the same category, and it is regarded as something perverted and weird. That's my general assumption. I think a lot of non-shippers would actively refuse to look at proof, either because they think it's an invasion of their privacy, they argue that deppy do not wish to see it, they don't want to know the truth, or they just think it was created by tin-hatters.

If anybody wants a good example of what people actively think of "real-person shippers" I came across this here: cringe worthy fans at the unhhhh panel at dragcon
This is a discussion regarding a fan reading out fanfic at the panel of two people shipped together, everybody's anger, and the fallout comments. The kind of attention drawn towards shippers, teenage girls, and even straight women is telling in itself.
Notable comments about shipping under spoiler:

[this situation was cringe, really invasive, and terrible. The content and the theme is a different conversation, and completely deserved of the negative response, however I still find the misogynistic comments from the an lgbt+ fandom disappointing to read. Nevertheless, if anybody is interested in the response of people outside of fandoms and shipping.]

http://www.reddit.com/r/rupaulsdragrace ... n/dh4poc6/

http://www.reddit.com/r/rupaulsdragrace ... n/dh4p5bd/

http://www.reddit.com/r/rupaulsdragrace ... n/dh55six/

http://www.reddit.com/r/rupaulsdragrace ... n/dh4zavm/

http://www.reddit.com/r/rupaulsdragrace ... n/dh4und0/

http://www.reddit.com/r/rupaulsdragrace ... n/dh4usg2/

http://www.reddit.com/r/rupaulsdragrace ... n/dh4p6ct/

However, an interesting comment I read from this, was a personal one where somebody said (paraphrased) expressing their hatred for real-life shipping, and even dislike for fictional shipping. So, while shipping in general is looked down upon, real-life shipping is generally just found as disgusting for some reason. Honestly? They're not wrong. When I started watching deppy, I was weirded out, I found it ridiculous, and I ignored it mostly, until I worked my way back to their old videos and came to the conclusion their "flirtatious" manner led to people shipping them. So, I did research and *puts on sunglasses* found out the truth. Even now, whenever people have real-life shipping, I find it weird, and I can't help it. I just do. If I wasn't invested in deppy, I wouldn't even amuse myself with "shipping" as much as I do. Other people must feel the same: it's pointless, the people will get SO's and break up the ship, they could break up, forcing it on them makes them uncomfortable, the same reasons repeated over and over.

And again. The same story as ever. I feel that a lot of anti-shippers for phan, feel so, based on Dan's indignant responses to the matter at the time. While you could be a shipper, non-shipper, there's no denying that Dan was upset (Phil most likely distraught and secretly so, that he wouldn't ever address it). There's no denying, that even though the voldy leak was an accident, the subsequent questioning and questioning and shoving it in their face, was breaking boundaries. I think this remains a "reason" for anti-shippers, or casual phans who don't want anything to do with it, they see this aggressive response back, and see that for the people being shipped, that it isn't a pleasant experience.

I remember Tomska leaving Eddsworld, and the reason for doing so was because the community shipped two characters from the show together, and therefore shipped the real life men together. Going so far as to harass them on social media, and their respective SO's, going so far that Tom actually left participation in the fandom. While some real life shipping can be harmless, some can go far enough to cause tension and strain in relationships. It's real people's lives, at the end of the day, and some people need to put that before the feelings of strangers on the internet.

I think that the phandom are actively targeted and ridiculed, for several reasons. For one, well "shipping" is looked down upon in general, second, the phandom are quite known for finding and spreading any mention or sight of Dan or Phil, regardless of content, and ignoring any invasion of privacy. There also remains other reasons: youtubers looking down on younger people, and any content geared towards that, and in particular anything that has a predominantly teenage girl fanbase. Objectively, the phandom comes across as invasive, over-the-top, and manic, and them being not an adult fanbase doesn't help. [There are older phans, but that's aside from the point, people always target the younger ones.]

I think, when it boils down to it, people don't like what they don't understand. While real-person shipping, can mostly be harmless, when it begins to affect the lives and actual relationships of people involved, then it crosses the line.

Thank you for the links, I came across some very interesting comments about fans being out of line (and the story about that one chick who read porn fanfic aloud during a Q and A period with the drag queens telling her no over and over was just...too much) but the quote that really stuck with me was this one:

I saw John Waters at a bar once (I live in Baltimore, it's not an uncommon thing) and even though I love him I basically ignored him because dude is just trying to enjoy a drink not entertain my bs.
permalinkembed

Not entertain my bs. How true is that?? The fans that won't hesitate to approach a celeb, regardless of the situation, aren't thinking of anyone but themselves. Like the girl down in OZ who waited in the airport for 2+ days waiting for Dan and Phil. She doesn't care about how they feel about the stalking issue, or that hey, they are in an airport, they have a plane to catch, luggage to check, security to get through...all she thought about was herself and meeting them. She didn't think they might be weirded out by her.

Maybe that's an issue with Yter's, since they have this one-way relationship with their viewers and they come across as kind and relatable for viewers, but that doesn't mean they are the same IRL. I get that Dan's persona isn't how he is IRL, he's got a job to do. For some, that line between what is real and what is work is blurred.

[dansbonsaitree]

i think the topic of RPF and boundaries is interesting. I normally don't condone RPF but with Dan and Phil they have repeatedly said it is ok and even written it themselves.

[JoeAverage]

Also, I find it amusing that some people loathe shipping so much, when it's not just an internet thing. The term "shipping" came from the internet, but how many magazines or news papers ship celebrities all the time? Although, shipping on the internet is a lot more consuming in comparison to shipping irl - more people to relate to, more easily you become obsessed.

Ohh, I really like the point you are making here, I never thought of it that way but u are indeed right, tabloids and TV shows always speculate about celebrities dating and we don't even bat an eye over it, why most the "shipping" culture be mocked when the "Brangelina vs branisson" debacle ran for years?, I sincerely think it's mostly the age thing, since most "shippers" are supposed to be young girls who care too much over "meaningless" things.

[polly]

just gonna disrupt everything rn for my first post so i can change my profile which i already regret

[malday]

note: she means the room called "bahamas" it's not in the Bahamas.

[onetruetrash]

Also, I find it amusing that some people loathe shipping so much, when it's not just an internet thing. The term "shipping" came from the internet, but how many magazines or news papers ship celebrities all the time? Although, shipping on the internet is a lot more consuming in comparison to shipping irl - more people to relate to, more easily you become obsessed.

Ohh, I really like the point you are making here, I never thought of it that way but u are indeed right, tabloids and TV shows always speculate about celebrities dating and we don't even bat an eye over it, why most the "shipping" culture be mocked when the "Brangelina vs branisson" debacle ran for years?, I sincerely think it's mostly the age thing, since most "shippers" are supposed to be young girls who care too much over "meaningless" things.

That is such a good point. There are countless magazines and websites that gossip about celebrities, I don't see what the difference is.

[jesuisunèléve]

note: she means the room called "bahamas" it's not in the Bahamas.

Someone said it above and I am going to completely agree: these two make me so tired.

[saffarinda]

Also, I find it amusing that some people loathe shipping so much, when it's not just an internet thing. The term "shipping" came from the internet, but how many magazines or news papers ship celebrities all the time? Although, shipping on the internet is a lot more consuming in comparison to shipping irl - more people to relate to, more easily you become obsessed.

Ohh, I really like the point you are making here, I never thought of it that way but u are indeed right, tabloids and TV shows always speculate about celebrities dating and we don't even bat an eye over it, why most the "shipping" culture be mocked when the "Brangelina vs branisson" debacle ran for years?, I sincerely think it's mostly the age thing, since most "shippers" are supposed to be young girls who care too much over "meaningless" things.

That is such a good point. There are countless magazines and websites that gossip about celebrities, I don't see what the difference is.

Thank you! I think it is the age of the people shipping that makes people biased. If it's adults contemplating people's relationships then it's fine, but I'm guessing some people consider younger people too immature to think or speculate about relationships. Also, I think people on the internet consider relationships with youtubers and people who are "internet famous" are a lot closer in comparison to regular celebrities.

There seems to be the idea that celebrities don't see all the rumours being spread about them, or don't hear any gossiping regarding their relationship status - when in reality they see a lot more than people initally believe.

As a result, people may consider gossiping and speculating in the media fine, because they think the celebrities may not be exposed to it, whilst shipping people from the internet on the internet just seems too close to the people they're discussing, and too much of an invasion of privacy.

[Ashling Rae]

note: she means the room called "bahamas" it's not in the Bahamas.

I'm so lost in this whole situation the only thing I thought of when I saw this was:

[throwaway]

What is the % ages of Dan and Phil fans?

[loonyradish]

Not entertain my bs. How true is that?? The fans that won't hesitate to approach a celeb, regardless of the situation, aren't thinking of anyone but themselves. Like the girl down in OZ who waited in the airport for 2+ days waiting for Dan and Phil. She doesn't care about how they feel about the stalking issue, or that hey, they are in an airport, they have a plane to catch, luggage to check, security to get through...all she thought about was herself and meeting them. She didn't think they might be weirded out by her.

Maybe that's an issue with Yter's, since they have this one-way relationship with their viewers and they come across as kind and relatable for viewers, but that doesn't mean they are the same IRL. I get that Dan's persona isn't how he is IRL, he's got a job to do. For some, that line between what is real and what is work is blurred.

I just remembered that Dan and Phil once saw Emma Watson just across the street or something, but decided not to approach her. I recently realised that it might be because they know the feeling of not being able to walk down the street without getting run over by fans.

[alittledizzy]

What is the % ages of Dan and Phil fans?

Check back in a couple months for the results of the 2017 Dan and Phil Survey and we'll be able to more accurately answer that question.

And don't forget to take the survey if you haven't yet!

[pastelspectre]

speaking of real life/people shipping, i had a friend make a post about it a while back, maybe a month or so ago, and i commented asking if youtuber ships were okay, and everyone jumped on me said it was gross that i shipped phan and i said that they have expressed discomfort in the past for it, but nowadays they don't really say much about it, and if anything they sort of "encourage it" with the looks they give each other and stuff like that, but i still got hated on. it made me feel bad because i hate confrontation, and honestly i don't really ship it, as much as i believe in it now. i mostly just believe it in now more than "shipping it", if that makes sense?

but i dunno. just..wanted to put my input in i guess. i don't see a problem with real life/real people shipping as long as everyone is comfortable with it and the people shipping it don't go overboard or anything.. (which, granted some phandom members do but...idk?) i just...i'm bad at putting how i feel into words ugh im sorry if this makes no sense.

[howadorableright]

note: she means the room called "bahamas" it's not in the Bahamas.

look at dans cheeky smile, that little shit

as for deppy do we know if dan has gone back to london yet or is he staying with the lesters

[thephandommenace]

Why does anyone perceive fanfiction or RPF as weird anyway? I suppose because 90% of it is romance/smut which gives it a bad reputation, but romance is often depicted as a 'silly', 'soft' genre that's not worthy of praise and I don't think that's fair. This post springs to mind:

[tumblr] <div class="tumblr-post" data-href="https://embed.tumblr.com/embed/post/Cd7 ... 9256344987" data-did="3d5bf99accd7754424f061bff9bde9adbdbff01d">[/tumblr]

It's just creative writing at the end of the day. People may think a line is being crossed when it comes to shipping real people, and fanfiction isn't for everyone generally, but I think as long as they don't shove the shipping in the shipped persons' faces or pester them about it in any other way, it's fine.

[queerofcups]

Discussions like this make me miss the fourth wall so, so much. I don't think shipping real people is particularly new or particularly weird, but presenting shipping activities to the people folks are shipping (or demanding that they act in ways that support the ship) makes me really, deeply uncomfortable. I think Twitter is a huge part of what makes it seem like its ok to do such things-- the level of access we have to directly communicating with DnP would've been unimaginable back in the days of bandom and I think its part of why some folks in the fandom are so, ah, fervent.

[plath]

[offtopic]I was watching PJ's live show the other day and a fan messaged asking "What should I do about all the phan shippers?" (He uploaded this live show, the "Edgar Titan" or something like that, when PJ responds like "I'm not sure that's appropriate to talk about on the live show, but thanks..." that's what the question was.) PJ handled it very gracefully and the best way he possibly could, but it got me thinking about how phan shippers seem to be mocked so much in the YouTube community, and I'm just dying to discuss more. I considered this morning that people may find it laughable when they don't know all the details and haven't done the research like some more dedicated fans have (whether the act of doing research is a positive or not). I guess I'm just wondering what makes phan shippers so much more worthy of ridicule (according to some) than fans of other ships. Is it because we as a collective have undoubtedly taken it too far in the past? Because we come across more passionate/serious about it than other fandoms? Maybe that they find the pairing in general laughable or problematic? Just kinda makes me sad for them, because they don't know the joy of phan. Idk, chime in if anyone else is interested in discussing this.[/offtopic]

I don't think anyone should be ridiculed for their shipping preferences. Let me just say that right away.

Having said that...I don't understand shipping real people in general, like, I just don't get what anyone gets out of it tbh? I don't care that much one way or the other. I love the guys and love their content but their private lives aren't that interesting to me. I'm mostly here on IDB because I like discussing their videos and livestreams and keeping up to date with their stuff without having to follow a thousand different social media feeds. HOWEVER, I respect that other people DO find that aspect of their lives interesting. I just don't see the appeal, personally, and I guess this might be the case for a lot of people who don't "get" shipping generally? If you don't understand something you're more likely to think it's weird or more deserving of ridicule.

Secondly, you guys are everywhere. There's no way to enter fandom space or have a discussion about dan and phil without shipping coming up. Which, like I said - whatever, doesn't bother me personally. But it could be annoying to people who don't care about that stuff.

Thirdly, you guys are intense. I mean, you analyse everything. Sometimes you're right about stuff (moving!) but some of the theories seem just...a little strange? to an outside perspective. You guys see stuff in videos or pictures that doesn't seem to be there to other people who don't ship them, so that could seem a bit odd to other people. To take it to another extreme, there is something scary about people who genuinely believe they're being sent secret messages by their favourite celebrities. I don't think that's the case for anyone here, but that level of delusion is what motivates a LOT of irl stalkers (and people who like, break into real life actors' houses and hide in their closets "because they've been sending me messages in her movies that they wants us to be friends"). Like obviously these people have mental health issues as well but I feel like it's worth mentioning in this context as an extreme example of what can go wrong when people over-invest/over-identify in famous strangers.

Fourthly, there's also shippers from other fandoms that have given real life shippers a bad name (naming no names) and just seem really out of touch and delusional. It's frightening to see people get swept up in mass hysteria which gets whipped up to death threats, rape threats, conspiracy theories, and spills out to affect the lives of the real people involved (NOT DAN AND PHIL/ THE PHANDOM, OBVIOUSLY. But this shit has actually happened in other fandoms when girlfriends were revealed.)

Fifthly, (mostly) straight girls/women shipping m/m pairings could be seen by some as fetishistic. I don't think this is the case 100% of the time but that could be another reason why some people don't like it.

Sixthly, there's probably a level of misogyny that attaches itself to anything whenever girls/women like it and are vocal about liking it.

Just my two cents. If you're a shipper please don't take anything I said too much to heart. Personally as long as it's safe sane and (semi??) consensual I don't care, but I thought I could contribute from the perspective of someone who can see both sides of the argument, so to speak.

[starry nightworld]

I think a bit of fun shipping confined to Wattpad and Ao3 is one thing but...

I guess the thing that makes me sad is the frequency of outright threats that people would stop being Dan and Phil fans if they turned out not to be together. Because Dan and Phil have been lying or something despite them repeatedly denying being together. You can only imagine the havoc which would ensue if either of them produced a girlfriend/boyfriend.

Which is quite depressing given that this is Dan and Phil's livelihood which supports them and indirectly Martin and Cornelia. To think that they might feel afraid that shippers could try to ruin the careers they worked so hard to build is really sad.