IDB

starry nightworld wrote:I guess the thing that makes me sad is the frequency of outright threats that people would stop being Dan and Phil fans if they turned out not to be together. Because Dan and Phil have been lying or something despite them repeatedly denying being together. You can only imagine the havoc which would ensue if either of them produced a girlfriend/boyfriend.

Which is quite depressing given that this is Dan and Phil's livelihood which supports them and indirectly Martin and Cornelia. To think that they might feel afraid that shippers could try to ruin the careers they worked so hard to build is really sad.

plath wrote:

Ashling Rae wrote: [offtopic]I was watching PJ's live show the other day and a fan messaged asking "What should I do about all the phan shippers?" (He uploaded this live show, the "Edgar Titan" or something like that, when PJ responds like "I'm not sure that's appropriate to talk about on the live show, but thanks..." that's what the question was.) PJ handled it very gracefully and the best way he possibly could, but it got me thinking about how phan shippers seem to be mocked so much in the YouTube community, and I'm just dying to discuss more. I considered this morning that people may find it laughable when they don't know all the details and haven't done the research like some more dedicated fans have (whether the act of doing research is a positive or not). I guess I'm just wondering what makes phan shippers so much more worthy of ridicule (according to some) than fans of other ships. Is it because we as a collective have undoubtedly taken it too far in the past? Because we come across more passionate/serious about it than other fandoms? Maybe that they find the pairing in general laughable or problematic? Just kinda makes me sad for them, because they don't know the joy of phan. Idk, chime in if anyone else is interested in discussing this.[/offtopic]

I don't think anyone should be ridiculed for their shipping preferences. Let me just say that right away.

Having said that...I don't understand shipping real people in general, like, I just don't get what anyone gets out of it tbh? I don't care that much one way or the other. I love the guys and love their content but their private lives aren't that interesting to me. I'm mostly here on IDB because I like discussing their videos and livestreams and keeping up to date with their stuff without having to follow a thousand different social media feeds. HOWEVER, I respect that other people DO find that aspect of their lives interesting. I just don't see the appeal, personally, and I guess this might be the case for a lot of people who don't "get" shipping generally? If you don't understand something you're more likely to think it's weird or more deserving of ridicule.

Secondly, you guys are everywhere. There's no way to enter fandom space or have a discussion about dan and phil without shipping coming up. Which, like I said - whatever, doesn't bother me personally. But it could be annoying to people who don't care about that stuff.

Thirdly, you guys are intense. I mean, you analyse everything. Sometimes you're right about stuff (moving!) but some of the theories seem just...a little strange? to an outside perspective. You guys see stuff in videos or pictures that doesn't seem to be there to other people who don't ship them, so that could seem a bit odd to other people. To take it to another extreme, there is something scary about people who genuinely believe they're being sent secret messages by their favourite celebrities. I don't think that's the case for anyone here, but that level of delusion is what motivates a LOT of irl stalkers (and people who like, break into real life actors' houses and hide in their closets "because they've been sending me messages in her movies that they wants us to be friends"). Like obviously these people have mental health issues as well but I feel like it's worth mentioning in this context as an extreme example of what can go wrong when people over-invest/over-identify in famous strangers.

Fourthly, there's also shippers from other fandoms that have given real life shippers a bad name (naming no names) and just seem really out of touch and delusional. It's frightening to see people get swept up in mass hysteria which gets whipped up to death threats, rape threats, conspiracy theories, and spills out to affect the lives of the real people involved (NOT DAN AND PHIL/ THE PHANDOM, OBVIOUSLY. But this shit has actually happened in other fandoms when girlfriends were revealed.)

Fifthly, (mostly) straight girls/women shipping m/m pairings could be seen by some as fetishistic. I don't think this is the case 100% of the time but that could be another reason why some people don't like it.

Sixthly, there's probably a level of misogyny that attaches itself to anything whenever girls/women like it and are vocal about liking it.

Just my two cents. If you're a shipper please don't take anything I said too much to heart. Personally as long as it's safe sane and (semi??) consensual I don't care, but I thought I could contribute from the perspective of someone who can see both sides of the argument, so to speak.

alittledizzy wrote:I'm loving this entire RPF analysis conversation, and I want to come back to it when I have a bit more time to write my thoughts. Couldn't resist replying to this, though - just because it's a topic I spend a lot of time thinking about in terms of fan behavior.

starry nightworld wrote:I guess the thing that makes me sad is the frequency of outright threats that people would stop being Dan and Phil fans if they turned out not to be together. Because Dan and Phil have been lying or something despite them repeatedly denying being together. You can only imagine the havoc which would ensue if either of them produced a girlfriend/boyfriend.

Which is quite depressing given that this is Dan and Phil's livelihood which supports them and indirectly Martin and Cornelia. To think that they might feel afraid that shippers could try to ruin the careers they worked so hard to build is really sad.

Do you think fans have a responsibility to keep consuming content and supporting creators, if it turns out that the thing they were invested in them for isn't actual real? I'm curious as to why.

I as much as said this in a recent post, but if it turned out that Dan and Phil were the kind of people who genuinely made the Valentine's Day video because they thought it would be legitimately funny to parody a m/m relationship, or that Dan was the kind of person who legitimately expressed his distaste for the idea of him being in a relationship with Phil in the ways he did in 2012 without it being because of some deeper-rooted closeted situation, then that changes my perception of Dan and Phil as people. In my mind, the actions they took in late 2011 through 2013 were because they were closeted, not to a comfortable point of financial or professional stability and afraid of how being outed would impact their career, and most likely just plain not ready for that pressure of being publicly out. I can rationalize that from four years ago because I have their current behavior, with regard to sexuality individually and each other, to provide a counterpoint.

But before I get off on too much of a tangent, my basic point is: I don't feel like it's sad for me to say that if I realized I had misjudged what I thought the character of a famous person to be so drastically, that it would cause me to evaluate if I wanted to continue supporting them. It seems more unhealthy to me to be the type of fan who has one viewpoint, unwavering, no matter what new information comes to light, or who feels like the only way to be a good fan is to not be a critical one. I'm definitely open to hearing other viewpoints, though.

capybantsa wrote:To me shipping is okay as long as it doesn't go too far, but RPF is going too far. Especially erotic RPF. It's textbook objectification, treating real people with free will the same as fictional characters with no free will. It's like porn that they didn't consent to be in, being spread out where anybody can view/read it

Maybe I just feel this way because I've seen erotic RPF of me on the internet and it felt really gross and invasive, and maybe actual celebrities and public figures get used to it and don't mind, but... idk

alittledizzy wrote:

starry nightworld wrote:I guess the thing that makes me sad is the frequency of outright threats that people would stop being Dan and Phil fans if they turned out not to be together. Because Dan and Phil have been lying or something despite them repeatedly denying being together. You can only imagine the havoc which would ensue if either of them produced a girlfriend/boyfriend.

Which is quite depressing given that this is Dan and Phil's livelihood which supports them and indirectly Martin and Cornelia. To think that they might feel afraid that shippers could try to ruin the careers they worked so hard to build is really sad.

Do you think fans have a responsibility to keep consuming content and supporting creators, if it turns out that the thing they were invested in them for isn't actual real? I'm curious as to why

saffarinda wrote:

alittledizzy wrote:I'm loving this entire RPF analysis conversation, and I want to come back to it when I have a bit more time to write my thoughts. Couldn't resist replying to this, though - just because it's a topic I spend a lot of time thinking about in terms of fan behavior.

starry nightworld wrote:I guess the thing that makes me sad is the frequency of outright threats that people would stop being Dan and Phil fans if they turned out not to be together. Because Dan and Phil have been lying or something despite them repeatedly denying being together. You can only imagine the havoc which would ensue if either of them produced a girlfriend/boyfriend.

Which is quite depressing given that this is Dan and Phil's livelihood which supports them and indirectly Martin and Cornelia. To think that they might feel afraid that shippers could try to ruin the careers they worked so hard to build is really sad.

Do you think fans have a responsibility to keep consuming content and supporting creators, if it turns out that the thing they were invested in them for isn't actual real? I'm curious as to why.

I as much as said this in a recent post, but if it turned out that Dan and Phil were the kind of people who genuinely made the Valentine's Day video because they thought it would be legitimately funny to parody a m/m relationship, or that Dan was the kind of person who legitimately expressed his distaste for the idea of him being in a relationship with Phil in the ways he did in 2012 without it being because of some deeper-rooted closeted situation, then that changes my perception of Dan and Phil as people. In my mind, the actions they took in late 2011 through 2013 were because they were closeted, not to a comfortable point of financial or professional stability and afraid of how being outed would impact their career, and most likely just plain not ready for that pressure of being publicly out. I can rationalize that from four years ago because I have their current behavior, with regard to sexuality individually and each other, to provide a counterpoint.

But before I get off on too much of a tangent, my basic point is: I don't feel like it's sad for me to say that if I realized I had misjudged what I thought the character of a famous person to be so drastically, that it would cause me to evaluate if I wanted to continue supporting them. It seems more unhealthy to me to be the type of fan who has one viewpoint, unwavering, no matter what new information comes to light, or who feels like the only way to be a good fan is to not be a critical one. I'm definitely open to hearing other viewpoints, though.

Whilst I do agree with this, I think one of their main reasons for not being out (at least now) is because if they did end up splitting in the future, so many people would be heartbroken, or even angry, if they did. Even if they were the type of couple that could remain friends when they split up, I'm sure some people would still be angry that they didn't stay together.

They've mentioned stuff like Kalel and Anthony's relationship, and with another previously married couples channel (can't remember the name, sorry!) that people become so invested in it, and hurt when things begin to break down.

I've always been the sort of person to understand that any relationship has a chance of ending, even when you seem hopelessly in love and like nothing could come between you at the time, and planned for the likelihood of it occuring, so I would understand if Dan and Phil would do the same, considering their popularity.

On another note, one of my theories with regards to phan in general is that they dated back in the beginning, then decided that their friendship was too close to risk a nasty split up, so ended splitting - happy as friends. This is literally what happened to me and my friend (although we'd already known each other for two-ish years), and singers in Pentatonix, Scott and Mitch, said they used to date in high school, but they broke up and they still remain incredibly close to this day.

capybantsa wrote:To me shipping is okay as long as it doesn't go too far, but RPF is going too far. Especially erotic RPF. It's textbook objectification, treating real people with free will the same as fictional characters with no free will. It's like porn that they didn't consent to be in, being spread out where anybody can view/read it

Maybe I just feel this way because I've seen erotic RPF of me on the internet and it felt really gross and invasive, and maybe actual celebrities and public figures get used to it and don't mind, but... idk

alittledizzy wrote:Not to get all academic essay but "real person fiction" has a long and colorful history dating back to about the beginning of recorded time, so I think your argument is kind of minimizing and reducing an entire genre of film, literature, and entertainment when what you really mean is that you think online fandoms about real people are gross and invasive.

I mean, when we have this conversation, no one is out there arguing that The Social Network movie shouldn't have been made because it fictionalized or re-interprets the relationships, even sexual, between real people that the real people didn't consent to. Or just look at the lineup of recent tv shows: The Crown is about real life British royalty and has sex scenes. Hamilton is the biggest play on Broadway and it fictionalizes/dramatizes relationships between real people that we, at this point, have no idea if really happened or not (Hamilton/Angelica). Half the hit movies last year were retellings of someone's life that they probably, at the end of the day, didn't have the ability to fully consent to. Is somehow better if people in Hollywood (mostly men, lbr) are making millions of dollars off of it, but not okay if it's people doing it online solely for the fact that they enjoy it?

alittledizzy wrote:I'm loving this entire RPF analysis conversation, and I want to come back to it when I have a bit more time to write my thoughts. Couldn't resist replying to this, though - just because it's a topic I spend a lot of time thinking about in terms of fan behavior.

starry nightworld wrote:I guess the thing that makes me sad is the frequency of outright threats that people would stop being Dan and Phil fans if they turned out not to be together. Because Dan and Phil have been lying or something despite them repeatedly denying being together. You can only imagine the havoc which would ensue if either of them produced a girlfriend/boyfriend.

Which is quite depressing given that this is Dan and Phil's livelihood which supports them and indirectly Martin and Cornelia. To think that they might feel afraid that shippers could try to ruin the careers they worked so hard to build is really sad.

Do you think fans have a responsibility to keep consuming content and supporting creators, if it turns out that the thing they were invested in them for isn't actual real? I'm curious as to why.

I as much as said this in a recent post, but if it turned out that Dan and Phil were the kind of people who genuinely made the Valentine's Day video because they thought it would be legitimately funny to parody a m/m relationship, or that Dan was the kind of person who legitimately expressed his distaste for the idea of him being in a relationship with Phil in the ways he did in 2012 without it being because of some deeper-rooted closeted situation, then that changes my perception of Dan and Phil as people. In my mind, the actions they took in late 2011 through 2013 were because they were closeted, not to a comfortable point of financial or professional stability and afraid of how being outed would impact their career, and most likely just plain not ready for that pressure of being publicly out. I can rationalize that from four years ago because I have their current behavior, with regard to sexuality individually and each other, to provide a counterpoint.

But before I get off on too much of a tangent, my basic point is: I don't feel like it's sad for me to say that if I realized I had misjudged what I thought the character of a famous person to be so drastically, that it would cause me to evaluate if I wanted to continue supporting them. It seems more unhealthy to me to be the type of fan who has one viewpoint, unwavering, no matter what new information comes to light, or who feels like the only way to be a good fan is to not be a critical one. I'm definitely open to hearing other viewpoints, though.

alittledizzy wrote:I'm loving this entire RPF analysis conversation, and I want to come back to it when I have a bit more time to write my thoughts. Couldn't resist replying to this, though - just because it's a topic I spend a lot of time thinking about in terms of fan behavior.

starry nightworld wrote:I guess the thing that makes me sad is the frequency of outright threats that people would stop being Dan and Phil fans if they turned out not to be together. Because Dan and Phil have been lying or something despite them repeatedly denying being together. You can only imagine the havoc which would ensue if either of them produced a girlfriend/boyfriend.

Which is quite depressing given that this is Dan and Phil's livelihood which supports them and indirectly Martin and Cornelia. To think that they might feel afraid that shippers could try to ruin the careers they worked so hard to build is really sad.

Do you think fans have a responsibility to keep consuming content and supporting creators, if it turns out that the thing they were invested in them for isn't actual real? I'm curious as to why.

I as much as said this in a recent post, but if it turned out that Dan and Phil were the kind of people who genuinely made the Valentine's Day video because they thought it would be legitimately funny to parody a m/m relationship, or that Dan was the kind of person who legitimately expressed his distaste for the idea of him being in a relationship with Phil in the ways he did in 2012 without it being because of some deeper-rooted closeted situation, then that changes my perception of Dan and Phil as people. In my mind, the actions they took in late 2011 through 2013 were because they were closeted, not to a comfortable point of financial or professional stability and afraid of how being outed would impact their career, and most likely just plain not ready for that pressure of being publicly out. I can rationalize that from four years ago because I have their current behavior, with regard to sexuality individually and each other, to provide a counterpoint.

But before I get off on too much of a tangent, my basic point is: I don't feel like it's sad for me to say that if I realized I had misjudged what I thought the character of a famous person to be so drastically, that it would cause me to evaluate if I wanted to continue supporting them. It seems more unhealthy to me to be the type of fan who has one viewpoint, unwavering, no matter what new information comes to light, or who feels like the only way to be a good fan is to not be a critical one. I'm definitely open to hearing other viewpoints, though.

awsugar wrote: just curious: is anyone on this forum a non-believer and also lgbt?? i kind of get the feeling that the only people who could see all that they have done, past and present, think that they're not together and just playing it up for views, and be okay with that, are straight. but maybe i'm wrong.

Grey wrote:

alittledizzy wrote:I'm loving this entire RPF analysis conversation, and I want to come back to it when I have a bit more time to write my thoughts. Couldn't resist replying to this, though - just because it's a topic I spend a lot of time thinking about in terms of fan behavior.

starry nightworld wrote:I guess the thing that makes me sad is the frequency of outright threats that people would stop being Dan and Phil fans if they turned out not to be together. Because Dan and Phil have been lying or something despite them repeatedly denying being together. You can only imagine the havoc which would ensue if either of them produced a girlfriend/boyfriend.

Which is quite depressing given that this is Dan and Phil's livelihood which supports them and indirectly Martin and Cornelia. To think that they might feel afraid that shippers could try to ruin the careers they worked so hard to build is really sad.

Do you think fans have a responsibility to keep consuming content and supporting creators, if it turns out that the thing they were invested in them for isn't actual real? I'm curious as to why.

I as much as said this in a recent post, but if it turned out that Dan and Phil were the kind of people who genuinely made the Valentine's Day video because they thought it would be legitimately funny to parody a m/m relationship, or that Dan was the kind of person who legitimately expressed his distaste for the idea of him being in a relationship with Phil in the ways he did in 2012 without it being because of some deeper-rooted closeted situation, then that changes my perception of Dan and Phil as people. In my mind, the actions they took in late 2011 through 2013 were because they were closeted, not to a comfortable point of financial or professional stability and afraid of how being outed would impact their career, and most likely just plain not ready for that pressure of being publicly out. I can rationalize that from four years ago because I have their current behavior, with regard to sexuality individually and each other, to provide a counterpoint.

But before I get off on too much of a tangent, my basic point is: I don't feel like it's sad for me to say that if I realized I had misjudged what I thought the character of a famous person to be so drastically, that it would cause me to evaluate if I wanted to continue supporting them. It seems more unhealthy to me to be the type of fan who has one viewpoint, unwavering, no matter what new information comes to light, or who feels like the only way to be a good fan is to not be a critical one. I'm definitely open to hearing other viewpoints, though.

I agree with your last sentence a lot. I don't think we blindly support people no matter what they do either.

But I guess to me, I think it's weird to blame our perception of their relationship on them, when what they have actually said is they're NOT together. They have said that or implied it (not only do they not sleep in the same bed, they don't even sleep on the same floor of the building!!! Lmao) a million times. So if we interpret their behaviour as being a couple, I really don't see how that's their fault. I don't think they should go out of their way to not "act like a couple" just because their fans falsely interpret their behaviour as being romantic when it's not.

Also when it comes to voldy: they never released it on purpose. So in this scenario, they had a REALLY DUMB idea for a prank but luckily they realized it was dumb before ever releasing it. I think I can forgive them for that myself because if it hadn't have been released by YouTube, we never would have known.

Btw, I totally get how these denials can be interpreted as them being closeted. And I'm not saying I don't think they're together. But it's technically possible that they're not.

jaej wrote:

awsugar wrote: just curious: is anyone on this forum a non-believer and also lgbt?? i kind of get the feeling that the only people who could see all that they have done, past and present, think that they're not together and just playing it up for views, and be okay with that, are straight. but maybe i'm wrong.

i'm bi and these days don't particularly think they're together, and don't find old stuff as concrete evidence of much more than edgy thirsty emos on the internet. but i also don't really care so that could be apathy talking

awsugar wrote: if it was all a hoax, i could excuse them for the early stuff because they were young and it was a long time ago but they know better know so, in my eyes, a lot of the stuff they're doing would be pretty deliberate queer/shipbaiting which i don't appreciate. but everyone has their own opinion!

jaej wrote:individual people the shipping is about might not mind, but they definitely don't represent a majority lol, and even then positive comments like that usually refer to the milder stuff. imo it always depends what you class as shipping.

"these two people have cute interactions and look nice together, would be cute if they dated"
"i think these two people might be in a relationship based on these things"
"these two people are totally dating lol why do they think we don't notice, anyway here's a story i wrote where one rims the other, did you see that piece of content that has a 0.3 second hint of them being so gayyyy OMG i'm such trash"
"@ GUY NUMBER ONE #EVERYONEKNOWS WHY ARE YOU PRETENDING, IT'S FINE WE'LL LOVE YOU EVEN IF YOU TWO ARE TOGETHER"

awsugar wrote: just curious: is anyone on this forum a non-believer and also lgbt?? i kind of get the feeling that the only people who could see all that they have done, past and present, think that they're not together and just playing it up for views, and be okay with that, are straight. but maybe i'm wrong.

i'm bi and these days don't particularly think they're together, and don't find old stuff as concrete evidence of much more than edgy thirsty emos on the internet. but i also don't really care so that could be apathy talking

fancybum wrote:

awsugar wrote: if it was all a hoax, i could excuse them for the early stuff because they were young and it was a long time ago but they know better know so, in my eyes, a lot of the stuff they're doing would be pretty deliberate queer/shipbaiting which i don't appreciate. but everyone has their own opinion!

What specifically are they doing that would qualify as queer/shipbaiting currently?

throwaway wrote:

jaej wrote:individual people the shipping is about might not mind, but they definitely don't represent a majority lol, and even then positive comments like that usually refer to the milder stuff. imo it always depends what you class as shipping.

"these two people have cute interactions and look nice together, would be cute if they dated"
"i think these two people might be in a relationship based on these things"
"these two people are totally dating lol why do they think we don't notice, anyway here's a story i wrote where one rims the other, did you see that piece of content that has a 0.3 second hint of them being so gayyyy OMG i'm such trash"
"@ GUY NUMBER ONE #EVERYONEKNOWS WHY ARE YOU PRETENDING, IT'S FINE WE'LL LOVE YOU EVEN IF YOU TWO ARE TOGETHER"

awsugar wrote: just curious: is anyone on this forum a non-believer and also lgbt?? i kind of get the feeling that the only people who could see all that they have done, past and present, think that they're not together and just playing it up for views, and be okay with that, are straight. but maybe i'm wrong.

i'm bi and these days don't particularly think they're together, and don't find old stuff as concrete evidence of much more than edgy thirsty emos on the internet. but i also don't really care so that could be apathy talking

bi as well and don't think they are together

awsugar wrote: i mean i think there's a definitely case for queerbaiting were they to start saying they're straight. i personally don't think anyone could view them as straight these days, especially dan.

awsugar wrote: and, i guess everyone interprets things differently but i would kind of see it as shipbaiting if they were to suddenly have different romantic interests. first of all, because they're definitely not discouraging shippers and i think in ways they're actually encouraging them. for example, dan naming the penguin in the club penguin video phanguin. dan's ambiguous wording about the new flat not being a forever home and 'when a house is bought' and then in his own liveshow pretty much confirming that someday he and phil will buy a place and adopt a dog. he knows exactly how these things will be interpreted and, yes, he uses vague wording a lot of the time but if they were not in a relationship i'd expect him to say something like 'oh someday when i buy my own place i'll get a dog'.
[..]
basically, i guess, if they weren't together i'd expect them to do a lot of things differently. because, the way i see, a lot of way they do is enouraging shippers. i'd expect them to deny it more or to simply do nothing to encourage or dissuade. but that's just my perception.

awsugar wrote:plus, all the male attraction mentions are very deliberate to me. and of course, they don't have to keep their attraction to men to themselves, should they both be bi/pan. but if they weren't together i'd expect them to make the mentions less deliberate. because, like i said, they know exactly how that's going to be interpreted. they know that it's going to make a better case for people that they're together.

capybantsa wrote:

alittledizzy wrote:

capybantsa wrote:To me shipping is okay as long as it doesn't go too far, but RPF is going too far. Especially erotic RPF. It's textbook objectification, treating real people with free will the same as fictional characters with no free will. It's like porn that they didn't consent to be in, being spread out where anybody can view/read it

Maybe I just feel this way because I've seen erotic RPF of me on the internet and it felt really gross and invasive, and maybe actual celebrities and public figures get used to it and don't mind, but... idk

Not to get all academic essay but "real person fiction" has a long and colorful history dating back to about the beginning of recorded time, so I think your argument is kind of minimizing and reducing an entire genre of film, literature, and entertainment when what you really mean is that you think online fandoms about real people are gross and invasive.

I mean, when we have this conversation, no one is out there arguing that The Social Network movie shouldn't have been made because it fictionalized or re-interprets the relationships, even sexual, between real people that the real people didn't consent to. Or just look at the lineup of recent tv shows: The Crown is about real life British royalty and has sex scenes. Hamilton is the biggest play on Broadway and it fictionalizes/dramatizes relationships between real people that we, at this point, have no idea if really happened or not (Hamilton/Angelica). Half the hit movies last year were retellings of someone's life that they probably, at the end of the day, didn't have the ability to fully consent to. Is somehow better if people in Hollywood (mostly men, lbr) are making millions of dollars off of it, but not okay if it's people doing it online solely for the fact that they enjoy it?

Should fans put their creative writing and explicit fanart in front of Dan and Phil, if it makes Dan and Phil uncomfortable? Definitely not. Is it fair to just issue a blanket judgement with your only nuance being "rpf is bad, erotic rpf is worse"? Don't think so either. You're also really undermining how creative fiction can incorporate sex into a story, just the way movies and tv shows do.

And you're not leaving room for the fact that like it or not, Dan and Phil have to some extent condoned the fan behavior by making things like the tumblr tag and including fanart and fanfic in TABINOF. They don't like it when we inch too close to the line of reality, but they've never made that kind of judgement on fanfic itself.

Whoa whoa whoa

First off: What I said was only my opinion (I literally said "to me" as the first two words), I didn't say anybody has to agree with me.

I haven't seen any of those things you mentioned, but actually I've hesitated about watching The Crown despite positive reviews specifically because of the RPF factor. How much of it was intended to be biographical, and how much of it was just for entertainment? How much of it was consented to, and how much of it was taken for granted? Maybe most people don't care, but that's an uncomfortable level of ambiguity for me when it concerns people who are still alive or their loved ones.

And about "not leaving room for the fact that... Dan and Phil have to some extent condoned the fan behavior", I did though? I said "maybe actual celebrities and public figures get used to it and don't mind".


Is this a discussion or a battle to find the "correct" opinion?



Edit: This is something that I really don't understand about western culture. Here it's assumed that what you say is only your opinion unless you use very assertive words, but it seems like in the west everything you say is assumed to be an assertion no matter what and there's no room for opinions? I really just don't get it.

jaej wrote:it's odd that mentioning attraction to males is seen as a sign they're together rather than a sign that they're attracted to men but single and thirsty. i'm pretty free of jealousy in relationships but even then i wouldn't take my partner going on a lot about other dudes to be a sign of them being into me. maybe when it's mutual and a point to bond over but generally... i don't see it? if anything, talking about attraction so much would work just as well reaffirming a single thirsty + oh so relatable look

fancybum wrote: This is where it gets kind of muddy for me, with the 'encouraging' of shippers through choosing not to deny or dissuade. Like if they're just living their lives lowkey ('when a house is bought' said matter-of-factly when discussing his actual life vs. 'when I get my dream home with the love of my life, you know what I'm saying guys? get it? nudge nudge give me money maybe we'll do a boyfriend tag'). That's a weird line of thinking that puts viewer expectations/perspectives above what D&P themselves choose to share/act/discuss. And if they don't want to explicitly share the status of their relationship (because maybe to them that would be selling out one of the remaining truly private parts of their lives), but also not explicitly lie about it (through denial), then what are they left with? Things as small as prolonged eye contact 'encourages' the shippers because the shippers want to be encouraged, but that's not really at the feet of D&P.

fancybum wrote: And this I just entirely disagree with. Let's go ahead and say they're not together. Should they still keep their male attraction to themselves just to try to keep people from 'getting the wrong idea' about the two of them? Whether they're together or not, that has nothing to do with expressions of sexuality or attraction to other people that aren't D or P. Like should Dan stop talking about Haru because he looks like Phil? People might interpret that as Dan attraction to Phil and Dan should really watch that if he doesn't want people thinking something about him he hasn't confirmed, best just to stifle anything that might lead back to the other... Like. what. That's a real rickety bridge to try to cross.