IDB

fancybum that was such a beautiful post, I agree with what you said so much. I'm all for analysing what they put out there to the world, but when it comes to the argument of "if they mention attraction to anything other than women then it's obvs queerbaiting" I am so done with it. The fact that (I would say the majority of?) their audience want them to be queer (and together) shouldn't mean that they have to alter the way they naturally express themselves. Well, as natural as a planned, filmed and edited video can be lol.

They don't owe anyone a label or an explanation of who they'd like to bump uglies with; if they want to give one, great, if they don't, also great. If they want to give themselves one but keep it to their private lives, again that's great. But it does annoy me that people have to make a "statement of intent" only if they aren't straight.

In summation: they are great, we are great, you are great, I am great, everybody's great

Re sweetmm

Romantically. I'm not worried about their duoness professionally. As you said. they are smart. They know they need each other to be successful.

gnostic wrote:To clarify, there is quite a subset of people who believe Dan isn't straight but phan isn't real.

This is almost me too. I would say I don't think Dan is straight but based on his comments and likes and such he doesn't want to be labelled as anything which I can respect.

As far as phan goes I alternate between and could easily accept one of two scenarios: either phan is real and always has been real but maybe like most couples they had their rough patches over the years which would make sense given how young they were (especially Dan) when they first met.

OR

Maybe phan was real at first and at some point decided that they were better off as friends because sometimes the things people interpret as #phanproof are things that I've seen my guy friends do (and sometimes even take it further. And as far as we know they're straight or have been hanging on to straight, straight through marriage).

Any other general scenario would prob get a slight head tilt from me but meh.

fancybum wrote:

Ticia wrote: In my opinion, Dan is dancing on the fine line in this queer baiting / phanbaiting thing: not wanting labels but talking about men in a sexual manner, stirring the phandom with non-so-subtle comments but deleting anything that may incriminate him in any way (in 2014, he mass deleted all his tweets, for example). Phil...he just smiles but turns into a damn executive as soon as the cameras are off. And well, both script their videos and plan their tweets.

I don't know, I think I just want them to come clean on the basics of their relationship

Sorry, but I just hate this so much. I hate the idea that if you're not straight, you need to explicitly state as much in order to preface any non-straight comments as being "okay" to make. Unless he's willing to label himself, he shouldn't be able to say what he wants?

Men talking about women? Sure. Women talking about men? Whatever.

Men talking about men? Explain yourself!

Does anybody actually think that Dan is straight? That all of his male-attraction comments (over years now) are... jokes? baiting? [other]? What does he possibly gain from that, if that was the case? In what reality does that make any sense? If he was going to intentionally concoct some kind of ruse (as a straight man) of pretending to not be straight, why wouldn't he just fully commit. To vaguely hint and pretend consistently over several years to be something he's not (for... reasons... ) seems like a lot of work for little reward. What would be the point, I really want to know the logical path of this thought process. Where does it begin and where does it end.

Surely that requires a lot more mental gymnastics (and quite a low regard of Dan's personality?) to think he would fake such a basic part of himself just to court LGBT+ viewers (and surely a 'conventional' audience would be a larger pool of people to pander to anyway if that was his goal) than to just accept the simpler explanation of 'he's not straight and doesn't care to appear as such'. It drives me up the wall when people start pulling out the queerbaiting card because it makes no sense. Think about what you're saying. We know that Dan overthinks everything he puts out publicly, more and more as time goes on; overly aware of how everything he does and says could come across, and making such an effort to be accepting and inclusive of his audience.
But also he's queerbaiting left and right just for the hell of it at the same time? ..m'kay.

I'm going to talk a lot of pent-up shit under the cut now, fair warning:

urban dictionary wrote:SHIPBAITING: When the author of a work places characters in potentially romantic situations with the intent of teasing of the audience. Nothing ever comes of these situations.

wikipedia wrote:QUEERBAITING: The term refers to what happens "when people in the media (usually television/movies) add homoerotic tension between two characters to attract more liberal and queer viewers with the indication of them not ever getting together for real in the show/book/movie".[1]

As this definition states, a queer relationship or character is hinted at to attract/appeal to the queer market, and then is denied, either modifying the character's behavior (making them enter an opposite gender relationship), playing it off as a joke (sometimes a recurring joke or trope), or denying the assumptions (in interviews, panels and such) without modifying the character's behavior.

Yes, Dan 'hints at' non-straightness. No, he doesn't play it off as a joke. He's denied being gay in the past. He's never claimed to be straight. Them's the facts.
In that godforsaken Sunday Times article, the most recent example we have of him actually addressing sexuality head-on, he didn't confirm or deny any sexuality, he explicitly stated the subject was off-limits and irrelevant to what he does. He liked a tweet eschewing the use of labels to pigeonhole people. He doesn't want to fucking explain himself, nor should he have to.

And what are people even calling shipbait these days with phan? That 'trash ranking' tweet was not shipbaiting; acknowledging a ship and teasing a ship are very different things. There's no point in pretending they're not aware of people shipping the fuck out of them; acknowledging the jokes and occasionally joining in (completely harmlessly in this case) just seems like a nice interaction with their audience.

I was too late to the earlier discussion about Dan feeling restless/pushing limits but I just want to add that while I do see where that thought is coming from, him liking that labels tweet muddies the water to me a little bit. Unless he's just getting restless at being expected to label himself (because: same) and is pushing back at those expectations with bolder comments not because he wants to come out, but because he doesn't want to and he feels he shouldn't have to.


Prefacing this next bit with If They're Together so turn back if you must:

I think the worst thing D&P can be accused of at this point (and 'accused' even sounds too harsh to me) is not queerbaiting, not phanbaiting, but gaslighting. But unlike the play/film, they're not gaslighting us out of greed or anything malicious, but out of their own need for privacy and self-preservation.

If you're unfamiliar, "gaslighting" is telling somebody things that make them doubt their own perception of reality and therefore their own sanity. You see a light dim or flicker, and you're told it did no such thing, you're crazy, it's all in your mind. You hear footsteps above you, and you're told there's nobody else in the house, you're just hearing things. You begin to doubt reality after being worn down and constantly told that what you see and experience is wrong, despite all evidence to the contrary.

But in this scenario, the reasons for the lights dimming or footsteps overhead is not a greedy murderer looking for hidden jewels in the attic, it's two people trying to keep their private relationship with each other private. And backed into a corner, felt they had no other choice but to tell us we're crazy and imagining things. That that video professing love that was released accidentally was just an abandoned prank. That those early public exchanges between two people with nothing to hide was just childish attention-seeking. "The lights didn't dim you planks, it's all in your minds." And I would have said they stopped with the gaslighting if it weren't for those bus tweets (which I still find weird and unnecessary even though I explain it with 'setting the narrative for US plebs').

Ignoring the bus thing though, they (by 'they' I suppose I just mean Dan) have cooled off in the last couple of years, haven't they? With the no-homo/yay-boobs panic and denials. Which is why I cringe at mentions of 2012-Dan rolling in his grave at things present-Dan says or does. At what point, after consciously working towards becoming a more comfortable and open person, are you allowed to move on from your past? I know it's all jokes, but 2012 Dan is now a small part of Dan's history and I think his no-homo'ing period has been more than doubled in duration with the 'lobster-action/enter-me-Troye/idgaf' period. But people always throw that shitty time period back in his face and it annoys me, what does it do to him? Maybe that's partly where the restlessness is coming from, people not taking the current him at face value.

tl;dr
idk sorry my brain is melting

I think you make a lot of great points here, and I agree with a lot of them, so what I'm gonna add isn't necessarily to counter-point what you're saying, for me, it's just another aspect to consider. Because, you know, shit's complicated.

I think that as a private citizen, you absolutely don't owe anybody a coming out. I'm a firm believer that it does make for a more comfortable, happier life once you do unless you're putting yourself in danger by doing so. There's a sense of shame around queerness that's internalized within society that's not yet been eradicated, and it feeling it lift up with not having to choose your words carefully anymore, with owning who you are and wearing it as a medal of honor. (Now, you don't need a label to do this, absolutely not & labels should not be pushed on anybody. They can be a weight on people's shoulders as much as they can empower someone else. But you can be out and vocal about being not-straight while claiming a distaste for labels that is in no way presented as "undecided".) But that's not the point & it's still ultimately up to you, and there's upsides and downsides to consider either way.

I in no way think Dan is straight. I don't. I also think he's with Phil, but I do think that's largely besides the point here. It might be a main source of my understanding for why he's choosing to not voice his not-straightness in an undeniable way & why I have a lot of empathy for his rather problematic past re: homophobia. But I do absolutely believe that with everything I know, he'd have to be a truly horrible person to be straight at this point, go through a history like 2009-2014 and then go back to making comments about finding men attractive that he does not mean seriously to troll/satisfy/bait a part of his audience. It in no way fits with my perception of him as a human and with my perception of having seen him grow as a socially conscious, caring little social justice warrior. But to play the devil's advocate, yeah. If everything was the worst thing it can be & I was horribly wrong about my judgement of him, there's a bit of room for speculation.

I hate that tiny bit of room for speculation. I'd like to kill it. With fire.

Because Dan's not just a private citizen anymore. He's a public person that is a part of a larger culture with its inherent set of circumnstances. And, like it or not, queerbaiting is absolutely a huge part of the YT culture. Playing up ambiguity with your housemates, kissing boy's cheeks for thumbnails, talking about the celebrities you're kinda attracted to regardless of gender because they're just that amazing (and hell, even people like fucking John Green used to do that, it's literally everywhere) -- and when a thing is that common and cemented into a culture that you're a part of, you're going to be percieved as just another product of it regardless of where the truth lies. And you become an uwilling participant of your own dehumanization.

Now, I hate that. I hate that this is the cards we've been dealt, but that's what we're working with here.

And the thing is, I do think that as a part of a marginalized group that's in a privileged position of power and influence, you carry - well, I don't want to call it an obligation, because no. But if you have this extremely fortunate position to be able to affect potentially 5 million people, and you're not. And if nothing else, I think that's a fucking damn shame, esp. since with all of the history that Dan has is still out there and the internet is weirdly forever, his best and most horrible moments will always be passed around and time doesn't really matter when your very line of work is a literal time capsule in the making.

And a firm statement would do a world of good. It would. Because there comes a point where the truth doesn't matter, in some contexts, what matters is the conversation that's being had. And most of those 5 million people he has access to & that know about him? Don't watch his liveshows. Don't read most of his tweets. Feel very certain in thinking that 'shippers be delusional' and 'it's fanservice and lolzor if you think it's not' - and that fuels the notion that's ingrained into a lot of people's minds. That queerness is a commodity to sell to 'silly hungry teenage girls', that it's something you get to take all of the advantages of (keeping fans interested, keeping them coming back for hints, giving them hopes of representation - and hell, there are parts of TATINOF that I don't wanna spoil for people but those familiar with it will know what I mean that could easily get people to believe that they're just cashing in the ship popularity) and have to live through none of the real difficulties of it. Because everyone does that, so why would your general audience member not assume that Dan's just another one of them when watching his anime video?

So I do hope that one day, there's an undesputable "I am attracted to both males and females" (or whatever actually applies) statement out there somewhere that's easily accesible and does not need to be hunted for. I get that if there is, people will apply it to Phan - but I do feel like he's slowly coming to be in a place where he can just say "I don't want to share my private relationships, that's not a part of what my channel is" - and yeah, people will assume and talk, but that's not going to be much of a difference, is it?

(But I'm an idealist. I also thought they were comfortable just not saying stuff about Phan & then the bus tweets came and once again confirmed that progress is never simple and hardly ever linear. There'll be trips and stumbles and uncertainty, always, until there isn't.)

akui wrote:Re sweetmm

Romantically. I'm not worried about their duoness professionally. As you said. they are smart. They know they need each other to be successful.

Well I for one would be glad if Dan make a move away, maybe then will Phil meet up with someone and build a family. I want to see a future AP video vlogs of him doing hilarious stuff with his partner/ spouse and his children, then my dream of a similar Matt&Blue vlogs for Phil will be a reality

He would then have a truckload of new ideas/stories to share with his viewers for his normal sit-down videos too. I really hope one day I'll get to watch Phil's younow of him changing diaper or feeding his baby.

fancybum. I totally agree with you.

akui wrote:Offtopic cuz I don't know what you guys are talking about I'm too busy to catch up!

Anyway. Everytime i see Louise i have this very unsettling feeling that Dan's gonna leave Phil someday in the future.

Why and what does Louise to do with it? I'm really curious about this.

sweetmm wrote:

akui wrote:Re sweetmm

Romantically. I'm not worried about their duoness professionally. As you said. they are smart. They know they need each other to be successful.

Well I for one would be glad if Dan make a move away, maybe then will Phil meet up with someone and build a family. I want to see a future AP video vlogs of him doing hilarious stuff with his partner/ spouse and his children, then my dream of a similar Matt&Blue vlogs for Phil will be a reality

He would then have a truckload of new ideas/stories to share with his viewers for his normal sit-down videos too. I really hope one day I'll get to watch Phil's younow of him changing diaper or feeding his baby.

He could always have/adopt babies with dan

phamnotof your last sentence really reasonated with me, I can't wait until a time when the boys stop caring and they once and for all clear all uncertainty about the nature of their relationship . On one hand I understand why they might want to keep their relationship a secret from mainstream media but another part of me is sad that they still haven't reached a point where they call tell their fans (be it lives how or whatever). I would think after 6 years they would be infallible enough to take on the crazy shipper fans and have their relationship survive. :

SquishPhan wrote: fancybum. I totally agree with you.

akui wrote:Offtopic cuz I don't know what you guys are talking about I'm too busy to catch up!

Anyway. Everytime i see Louise i have this very unsettling feeling that Dan's gonna leave Phil someday in the future.

Why and what does Louise to do with it? I'm really curious about this.

Guys, I'm trying and failing to understand how people think that Louise ''fancies Dan'' or Phil ''fancies Louise'' or any of these weird rumors I see floating around on the internet. I literally see nothing there besides three people who are cute friends, and nothing more. Objectively, Louise and Dan don't even have that much in common to bond over romantically besides being YouTubers, not to mention that they have 0 percent sexual chemistry.The vibes I get from seeing them interact is like watching two suburban middle-aged women who are part of the same book club, a book club that is actually an excuse to drink lots of wine and gossip about the neighbors.

sweetmm wrote:

akui wrote:Re sweetmm

Romantically. I'm not worried about their duoness professionally. As you said. they are smart. They know they need each other to be successful.

Well I for one would be glad if Dan make a move away, maybe then will Phil meet up with someone and build a family. I want to see a future AP video vlogs of him doing hilarious stuff with his partner/ spouse and his children, then my dream of a similar Matt&Blue vlogs for Phil will be a reality

He would then have a truckload of new ideas/stories to share with his viewers for his normal sit-down videos too. I really hope one day I'll get to watch Phil's younow of him changing diaper or feeding his baby.

**Taste high five** I've always been dreaming of this for Phil. If only I can write, I'll make a ff about this coz it's always in my head.
It's not that Dan cannot be the other person who Phil shares his family with. But I want to the family for Phil SOON and I don't think Dan is ready for that.

Thank fancybum for that explanation and that term. I now know what to call this craziness I feel about Phan.

It's sad that we can always have this lengthy discussions but at the end of the day they are mostly speculations because we'll (probably never) get an actual confirmation from them. Not that I'm tired of it. I actually enjoy and learn a lot from you guys.
I also feel bad that Dan's sexuality is always dragged for every "hints" he makes. If he's found IDB, he is probably laughing at us (in a good way).

I meant the reason of Louise's divorce. From my knowledge her husband and her have been together since they were very young, and after these years, according to Louise, they grown to be very different people.

I'm just afraid same thing would happen to deps, people change, a lot of marriages ended because of this. So far we can see deps both changed a lot over the years, I'm just unsure in the future, in another 6 years, they will change toward a direction where they still perfectly suitable for rach other. (Is that even English idk I'm v tired.)

I mean all of these based on if phan is real.

I want to add something regarding my comments, provided that I kind of started this tiny shitstorm I'm straight, and I feel extremely weird for having to clarify that I've no issues whatsoever with the LGBT community (just like anyone who uses not even half of the brain ). I also believe that they're both bisexuals and are in a romantic relationship --or at least have been--, but that's just my opinion and of course no one here knows the absolute truth.

My ultimate points were:

1) Dan and Phil send mixed signals, consciously or unconsciously (a bit related to what fancybum described as gaslighting), and even if they don't have any obligation to tell us the truth just like you and I don't have to explain our sexual or romantic background to anyone, I would personally like them to come clean on this matter. The reasons why they haven't done that yet have already been mentioned here: coming out is not easy for everybody, they want to keep their true private life out of the cameras, etc. But it may also be because their dynamics attract so much discussion, and views, and subscribers. It is a possibility. In my opinion, it's a mixture of all of the above, because a human being is complex.

2) This being said, if they ever decide to clarify their sexual orientation, I would be a bit disappointed if, in the end, they're straight. Not because I dream of a Day in the Life Wedding Edition, but because I would then see +7 years of Dan and Phil as two boys who toyed with the idea of being together as part of their marketing strategy.

All the talk about queerbaiting but really being straight makes me laugh so much because they seem as straight as a ruler. That's only my opinion though.

akui wrote:I'm just afraid same thing would happen to deps, people change, a lot of marriages ended because of this. So far we can see deps both changed a lot over the years, I'm just unsure in the future, in another 6 years, they will change toward a direction where they still perfectly suitable for rach other. (Is that even English idk I'm v tired.)

In any relationship it's possible but for the case of they've only grown together more over time. When there are opportunities for them to be apart or meet other people they're still stuck at the hip. The example where Phil says 'I haven't seen you in 10 hours' wanting to tell Dan about his day will always stand out because 10 hours is nothing for most people but for Deppy somehow it's a lot of time. How many times have we said don't they ever get sick of each other? But they never do. Sometimes it even seems like they're merging together more into one person. Their friends get them mixed up. They even get themselves mixed up. It's confusing to tell where one of them ends and the other begins. None of this signals that they're parting ways soon.

I mostly lurk, but I'm making a post now, yay. Anyway, I honestly don't know what Dan's sexuality is (none of us do lol who am I kidding). I just want to make a factual post about something that I've noticed while watching his videos. I know this is an unpopular opinion, but I don't think we should rule out the possibility that he could be straight. Some things he has said give off the impression that he could be. I will put some examples below.

The following are from this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_eh03iTalc (it wont let me embed it sorry)
I'm not gonna include parts of him saying he likes girls (because it could still mean he's bi), just parts that give off the impression that he's straight

3:13 someone asks if he has a boyfriend, he responds by saying "nope, quite fond of tits". If he was bisexual wouldn't he have just said "no"? Adding the whole "quite fond of tits" thing seems like a way of saying he only likes girls

5:09 someone said "Anne Hathaway's ass makes me question my sexuality" and Dan said "well she just underlines mine with a big frickin cement stamp"

5:47 "Sophie's brother thinks I'm hot. Well if I ever decide to bat for that camp, send me his number" if he was bi he wouldn't need to "decide to bat for that camp"

12:48 someone asked for his thoughts on Alexander Rybak and Dan said "he stole my heart, I don't even swing that way and I fell in love with him." We know he's not gay (he's denied it multiple times), but if he's bi then why would he say he "doesn't swing that way"? If he's bi then wouldn't he swing both ways?

14:23 A guy in the chat asks if he's gay, Dan says "no, I'm sorry if you're gay and you want me to be". This doesn't make sense if Dan is bisexual because why would he be apologizing? If he was bi, he could still date other guys. He also denied being gay and said "sorry guys and shipping girls" at 2:47

He also says "girlfriend" or "wife" when referring to relationship things, this could be a easy way of hiding his sexuality (if he is gay/bi), but he could be serious

I would go through the whole video if it wasn't 5am rn. Anyway, I think you guys get the gist of what I'm trying to say. People assume he's bisexual, but the way he answers some of the "are you gay" questions give off the impression that he's straight. I'm not saying he's straight, I just wanted to point this stuff out because I've never seen anyone discuss this before. I don't like labeling people's sexualities for them, like I said, I just wanted to put this out there. I also want to say that we shouldn't forget that you can be attracted to someone of the same sex without being bi/gay, there's a difference between thinking "oh that person is really pretty/hot/attractive etc" and "I want to have sex with that person". I'm a straight female and I have looked at other girls and thought "she's pretty", but it never goes past that because I'm not sexually attracted to females and I wouldn't be in a romantic relationship with one. I think all straight females have "girl crushes" and all straight males have "guy crushes". So when I see Dan say that another male is attractive, it doesn't automatically make me think he's gay or bi. Anyone get what I'm saying?

Another thing to consider is that Dan's audience (and Phil's) is mostly teenage girls between the ages of 11-15. I'm sure there's a lot of younger and older fans, but most are between those ages. He's definitely aware of that and I feel like he tries to make his content relatable by joking about finding guys attractive that his wide audience of girls between the ages of 11-15 might find attractive (didn't Tyler Oakley do the same thing by pretending to like One Direction? Not sure tho, just heard a rumor about it). Especially recently (2015/16), I don't recall him talking about attractive guys on main channel videos before 2015 (or maybe 14 idk). So is he slowly coming out or is this his new tactic to appeal to his audience more, whether by being relatable or teasing Phan shippers? Your guess is as good as mind, it could go either way.

Sorry for the essay. In conclusion, I don't want to define his sexuality, I just wanted to put my thoughts out here on things that I've noticed but have never really seen people talk about before. FYI, I ship Phan, don't attack me. I feel safer putting this here rather than on tumblr because you guys seem a lot more mature, kudos to you. I like the idea of them together and I'd be happy if they were, but I don't seriously ship it (nothing against you if you do). I just want to respect them.

Diyes_Celine wrote: **Taste high five** I've always been dreaming of this for Phil. If only I can write, I'll make a ff about this coz it's always in my head.
It's not that Dan cannot be the other person who Phil shares his family with. But I want to the family for Phil SOON and I don't think Dan is ready for that.

Thank fancybum for that explanation and that term. I now know what to call this craziness I feel about Phan.

It's sad that we can always have this lengthy discussions but at the end of the day they are mostly speculations because we'll (probably never) get an actual confirmation from them. Not that I'm tired of it. I actually enjoy and learn a lot from you guys.
I also feel bad that Dan's sexuality is always dragged for every "hints" he makes. If he's found IDB, he is probably laughing at us (in a good way).

Not to contradict the main points, I very agree with bolded part. I think some of Dan’s 'hints' should be taken for what they are - humorous light-hearted remarks.

Sorry if this was already mentioned, but according to the thumbmnail Dan will be in TomSka's vlog that'll be up today. edit: I'm happy with my rank

spider wrote:

akui wrote:I'm just afraid same thing would happen to deps, people change, a lot of marriages ended because of this. So far we can see deps both changed a lot over the years, I'm just unsure in the future, in another 6 years, they will change toward a direction where they still perfectly suitable for rach other. (Is that even English idk I'm v tired.)

In any relationship it's possible but for the case of they've only grown together more over time. When there are opportunities for them to be apart or meet other people they're still stuck at the hip. The example where Phil says 'I haven't seen you in 10 hours' wanting to tell Dan about his day will always stand out because 10 hours is nothing for most people but for Deppy somehow it's a lot of time. How many times have we said don't they ever get sick of each other? But they never do. Sometimes it even seems like they're merging together more into one person. Their friends get them mixed up. They even get themselves mixed up. It's confusing to tell where one of them ends and the other begins. None of this signals that they're parting ways soon.

I agree that it is possible, I mean many couples split up at some point, but as for now I don't see heading that way.
I agree with spider on this. To me it seems like they are growing even more together than apart at the moment, and since the moment is all we have I will happily take it. For now they both still seem incredibly fond of each other, and wanting to spend lots of their time together. So I am not really worried about them splitting up anytime soon. If they are together and all that.

Diyes_Celine wrote:

sweetmm wrote: Well I for one would be glad if Dan make a move away, maybe then will Phil meet up with someone and build a family. I want to see a future AP video vlogs of him doing hilarious stuff with his partner/ spouse and his children, then my dream of a similar Matt&Blue vlogs for Phil will be a reality

He would then have a truckload of new ideas/stories to share with his viewers for his normal sit-down videos too. I really hope one day I'll get to watch Phil's younow of him changing diaper or feeding his baby.

**Taste high five** I've always been dreaming of this for Phil. If only I can write, I'll make a ff about this coz it's always in my head.
It's not that Dan cannot be the other person who Phil shares his family with. But I want to the family for Phil SOON and I don't think Dan is ready for that.

I'm sure that Dan isn't ready for that, but besides Phil's age I see no signs that he is ready for a family now either. I mean this is a man that knows he can't even have a dog right now because he isn't ready for it yet, let alone be responsible for another human's life.
I agree that Phil with a baby would be really cute, but having a child is not a light decision to make and it being a cute idea just doesn't cut it for me. Phil may be older than Dan, but in my eyes he is not any more ready to have a child.

vincentian wrote: Sorry if this was already mentioned, but according to the thumbmnail Dan will be in TomSka's vlog that'll be up today.

Yeah I'm excited for this, now let's hope Dan is actually in it for longer than just five seconds.

spider wrote: In any relationship it's possible but for the case of they've only grown together more over time. When there are opportunities for them to be apart or meet other people they're still stuck at the hip. The example where Phil says 'I haven't seen you in 10 hours' wanting to tell Dan about his day will always stand out because 10 hours is nothing for most people but for Deppy somehow it's a lot of time. How many times have we said don't they ever get sick of each other? But they never do. Sometimes it even seems like they're merging together more into one person. Their friends get them mixed up. They even get themselves mixed up. It's confusing to tell where one of them ends and the other begins. None of this signals that they're parting ways soon.

Rulers LMAO

Idk cuz relationship only works through the balance between intimacy and distance. Maybe one day one of them want more intimacy the other want more distance. Idk what do i know I'm just a projecting my fear into deppy's love life, I'm gonna go back to where i belong.

Diyes_Celine wrote:If he's found IDB, he is probably laughing at us (in a good way).

"They said WHAT?!"

Pewphan, i have seen that video and similar and that is why, for the longest time, i was on straight Dan bandwagon. Ultimately, I changed my mind, because in recent years - more recent than those statements - he spoke of his attraction to men in exactly the same way he speaks of women (sometimes in the same sentence). So while some of them are definetely jokes, and while i know some straight man who delight in making the same jokes (without an army of teens to pay his bills for it), it would be unfair to myself and every other bi person around to dismiss every mention of male attraction as #relatable yet take identical confessions towards women at face value

SquishPhan wrote:

Diyes_Celine wrote:

sweetmm wrote: Well I for one would be glad if Dan make a move away, maybe then will Phil meet up with someone and build a family. I want to see a future AP video vlogs of him doing hilarious stuff with his partner/ spouse and his children, then my dream of a similar Matt&Blue vlogs for Phil will be a reality

He would then have a truckload of new ideas/stories to share with his viewers for his normal sit-down videos too. I really hope one day I'll get to watch Phil's younow of him changing diaper or feeding his baby.

**Taste high five** I've always been dreaming of this for Phil. If only I can write, I'll make a ff about this coz it's always in my head.
It's not that Dan cannot be the other person who Phil shares his family with. But I want to the family for Phil SOON and I don't think Dan is ready for that.

I'm sure that Dan isn't ready for that, but besides Phil's age I see no signs that he is ready for a family now either. I mean this is a man that knows he can't even have a dog right now because he isn't ready for it yet, let alone be responsible for another human's life.
I agree that Phil with a baby would be really cute, but having a child is not a light decision to make and it being a cute idea just doesn't cut it for me. Phil may be older than Dan, but in my eyes he is not any more ready to have a child.

vincentian wrote: Sorry if this was already mentioned, but according to the thumbmnail Dan will be in TomSka's vlog that'll be up today.

Yeah I'm excited for this, now let's hope Dan is actually in it for longer than just five seconds.

I'm gonna be honest i think neither of them are quickly "responsible adult" yet, but somehow i feel together they can manage through. If they have a spouse other than each other, i'd feel sorry for that person. Cuz raising one child is hard, raising a child and a man child… deserve so many drinks.

gnostic wrote:Pewphan, i have seen that video and similar and that is why, for the longest time, i was on straight Dan bandwagon. Ultimately, I changed my mind, because in recent years - more recent than those statements - he spoke of his attraction to men in exactly the same way he speaks of women (sometimes in the same sentence). So while some of them are definetely jokes, and while i know some straight man who delight in making the same jokes (without an army of teens to pay his bills for it), it would be unfair to myself and every other bi person around to dismiss every mention of male attraction as #relatable yet take identical confessions towards women at face value

Yup. That's basically where I'm at with Dan & being not-straight, and I went through a similar journey of finding these statements first, being convinced he's straight, and then only much later learning there's more to the story, that there's this whole huge narrative and 2012 is this epic era of confusion and contradiction that only makes sense when put into a broader context. But I guess this is a part of the point I was trying to make earlier about the internet and YT especially being a strange time capsule. People are gonna keep finding these statements, and putting them into context is actually a lot of work - and not everyone's gonna care to put that work in. So that's where I circle back to how "living out" is a beautiful idea, but the culture we're working within makes doing so virtually impossible.

(I will add that I'm also phan af, but I always feel like that's a separate conversation, almost. To me, it just makes sense when put together, their early history, their narrative, the growing check list of Couple Stages, the fact that there haven't been SO possibilities for either in all those 7 years & the fact that as far as I can tell & piece together, neither is straight. But I don't expect or need them to ever bring that into the light, and I do think that Dan is starting to work towards being out in a way that keeps their relationship protected. Hence having bus tweets, balant lies if there ever were any, vs. openness about being attracted to other men.)

there are complications and contradictions regardless of what sexuality they are. i rest with bisexual/otherwise attracted to multiple genders because a) it seems to have the least contradictions, b) the contractions are vague statements rather than 'i am not x', and c) it's the only term they've actually adopted themselves. to me it just makes sense to rest on that when its followed so much and generally seems to make sense.
it's also important to remember that there would be plenty of reasons to deny being attracted to men - talks of lying always seem to focus on lying to please fans who want them to be queer (partly for the relatability, and you can't deny a portion for their weird, fetishised views of queer men omg dan should paint his nails and be pastel and phil should be more punk then be his sugar daddy haha!!) and not the levels of homophobia and biphobia they could face. i mean, even plenty of the times that he's been asked if he's gay, it's been under a negative 'OMG u do this thing i don't like are you GAY'. when you aren't straight and this kind of thing happens and you are very much not out, harsh reactions can feel necessary for safety. it's not always an issue of being insecure with yourself, but of knowing it's just better in the long run

jaej wrote:i mean, even plenty of the times that he's been asked if he's gay, it's been under a negative 'OMG u do this thing i don't like are you GAY'. when you aren't straight and this kind of thing happens and you are very much not out, harsh reactions can feel necessary for safety. it's not always an issue of being insecure with yourself, but of knowing it's just better in the long run

I don't have time to go through and reply to everything I want to respond to (damn, you guys got thinky while I was asleep, I love it) but I do want to emphasize this, because jaej really nailed a good point here. Dan at his conflicted worst in 2010-2012 was not dealing with only cutesy phans wanting him and Phil to live happily ever after. He was dealing with an influx of people who probably didn't know much about him or his relationship context and were not asking if he was gay out of wishful thinking but out of typical youtube commenter bluntness. Adding that he was still very young and I'm not surprised he went with harshness to discourage the line of questioning.

I loved your post fancybum. I found myself nodding and reaching for the 'thanks' button about a dozen times. (Oh how I miss that button) The only bit that I didn't 100% agree with was this:

fancybum wrote:And what are people even calling shipbait these days with phan? That 'trash ranking' tweet was not shipbaiting; acknowledging a ship and teasing a ship are very different things. There's no point in pretending they're not aware of people shipping the fuck out of them; acknowledging the jokes and occasionally joining in (completely harmlessly in this case) just seems like a nice interaction with their audience.

I don't really get how joining in with shippers is any different from ship baiting? I mean, in some instances I do, like the 'Phan baby names' thing. That really was just Dan enjoying a fun interaction. but in Phil's the last video when Louise said 'or not accidentally' about groping Phil's butt and Dan made a HUGE show of agreeing with her and then Phil not only left it in during editing but zoomed in on him. IMO that was either ship-baiting or they are really trying to slowly come out.

pewphan wrote:I also want to say that we shouldn't forget that you can be attracted to someone of the same sex without being bi/gay, there's a difference between thinking "oh that person is really pretty/hot/attractive etc" and "I want to have sex with that person". I'm a straight female and I have looked at other girls and thought "she's pretty", but it never goes past that because I'm not sexually attracted to females and I wouldn't be in a romantic relationship with one. I think all straight females have "girl crushes" and all straight males have "guy crushes". So when I see Dan say that another male is attractive, it doesn't automatically make me think he's gay or bi. Anyone get what I'm saying?

I hate to generalize, and forgive me, but it's usually straight people I see that try to justify Dan's male mentions as possibly just ''guy crushes'' and his 2012 phase as possible ''proof'' of him really being straight.
I think Dan certainly goes above and beyond with his male mentions if he's just ''objectively'' attracted to men. He's literally been quoted as just watching anime to see boys in speedos.

''I signed up for the speedos.'' -Dan Howell, 2016

He's not talking about some kind of celebrity ''mancrush'' here, there's nothing not sexually explicit about watching an anime just to see hot guys with abs in their pants. And please don't start with the ''but anime boys aren't real people so they don't count'' thing, I swear to God. Dan Howell could admit to jacking off to Queer As Folk in his spare time and there would still be people arguing until kingdom come that's he actually straight because of shit he said four years ago. Four years ago I was ''straight'' too, things change. I was in the closet and I didn't have the additional pressure of being internet famous or having teenage girls trying to invade my privacy or a wave of homophobia from random strangers online, like jaej said.

To bring up another example, Shane Dawson is a formerly closeted bisexual YouTuber whose past ambiguity reminded me of Dan's. He has a history of dressing up in drag and ''joking'' about finding men attractive, alot, but would always vehemently deny being gay whenever anyone asked. And oh, fangirls fought tooth and nail to defend his ''straightness,'' particularly after he started dating his ex-girlfriend.