IDB

I think a part of the reason why I don't ship Phan or don't really think they're together is, that when I first started watching them, it didn't even cross my mind. Unlike some people, I don't find everything they do to be an obvious evidence of their profound love. And then when I saw all the fans going crazy over them being together I was kinda shocked, but also disturbed Not that there would be anything wrong about them being together, but if out of nothing you see how the crazy part of the Phandom is acting, it's hard not to be disturbed.

So I immediately got on the side of people who don't think they're together and I've seen plenty of proof that made me think so too. Of course there is a lot of proof for them being together. But that kind of proof always seemed more far fetched and based on people's initial belief that they're together. People see what they wanna see and they always only present their side of the story.

Now I feel like I'm a bit more open to them being together, though still don't exactly ship it or believe it. And I kinda hope they're not together, because it must be much harder to constantly have to (or want to) deny it an have fans theorize and look out for any kind of proof. If they really are just two friends with no romance between them whatsoever, the rumor and theories are probably annoying, but if there is nothing to hide, then there is no point in worrying.

So that's how I see it

this is a long, long post that is an incredible mess so apologies for that!

(also, apologies for the deplorable use of grammar and punctuation in this! (I’ll defend myself by saying the linguistics degree student in me that has to use/discuss/analyse proper syntax etc so vigorously at uni makes my use of English online come out severely deformed))

There are many reasons i don't believe that dan and phil are together. (in a romantic/sexual/more than platonic relationship.) i put over on the other general dinof/ap thread that i was 110% anti-phan but it's more like 99.94% (and it's the 0.06% that keeps me round tbh I won’t lie)

Disclaimers:

Firstly, sorry this is so (embarrassingly) long – I intended it to be short, believe me, and then I got carried away

I’m probably (most definitely) making points other people have made before, so sorry for the repetition! ---- I’m re-reading over this to make sure it makes relative sense and just want to mention that after a quick scan of the thread thus far I actually believe that most/all? of the points I make have been mentioned/discussed before, so sorry for that! But these are what I believe so I’ll just keep them in for reiteration/support of others ideas.

Also just to disclaim that this belief doesn’t consider their sexualities at all– I personally am not that interested in that aspect of their lives and more on the relationship between the two of them but I completely understand the need/want for representation from others etc but that’s another topic for another day (and while I do have my beliefs about what their sexualities are- that’s also another discussion for another day)

- saw a few mentions about heteronormativity for thinking they're not together, i don't believe i'm susceptible to falling into this trap, i could be wrong but I don’t believe I am.

Re: the idea that people believe everything that d/p say – I most definitely don’t fall into that category lol

also, aside from the fact that i'm a cynical and pessimistic person by nature and it's more than likely i'm 'anti-phan' (side note i just want to clarify that i'm not anti-phan in the sense that i'm against them being together i just don't believe they are and if it turns out that they are indeed together i would be endlessly happy bc it would be very, very cute) because i may just be protecting myself from the second hand sadness and angst if it were to turn out that they aren't together. (which would imply that i'm expecting them not to be together (so wouldn't this mean that i don't believe that they are together? Idk.))

also I shipped a RL, famous couple from the years of 2008/9 to early 2013 and they, devastatingly, broke up and I was so, so invested in them/their fandom for many years, so there are lingering effects of that here too hahah. it was traumatising tbh

also, also I just wanted to mention that i was heavily invested in the 2008-2011 British yt scene (although not actually dan and phil (unfortunately) lol but more the –trigger warning- chameleon circuit crew (barf now soz –still fond of Charlie though))) so I also largely factor in the general environment of that scene into my thoughts – it was so ship/queer bait-y

so, the fact that they actually have denied being together/being more than platonic right from the start of their friendship is a big reason I don’t believe they are together. (also clarifying that i have literally been through all 58 threads of the site that shall not be named, have read the phan timelines /seen voldy (110% completely believe it's a prank that they did realise would be too far) aka i'm not basing this off of not seeing enough evidence/research (i definitely have))

forgive me if i'm wrong and feel free to point out my errors but specific instances of this are that there were dailybooths mentioning that phil didn't turn around - on the nakedbooth @ phil's house etc (as unbelievable that it is.) the whole 'yes i like sleeping platonically in the same bed as my friends’ then mentioning phil - implying it was platonic sleep. the whole if we did get together we would be an elite couple over pj and lex etc (paraphrasing) -emphasis on if we were to be in a relationship- yes i should be fact checking but i'm a busy student @ uni who really doesn't have the time to be doing this lol. all of this can be obviously laughed off as 'oh they're blatantly lying and just hiding the fact that they’re in a relationship’ but i don't read it that way (subjectivity and all that jazz)

As mentioned above, re: voldy – definitely, completely, 100% think it was a prank gone wrong no matter the status of their relationship (but why would they leave it up on their channel for months if it was fake? Laziness lol. also perhaps they didn’t completely let go of the notion that it was a bad idea and could potentially have been harboured for future use (highly unlikely but an idea nonetheless)

Obviously dan’s 2012 'no homo' phase also plays into big part of why i don't believe they're together. Of course this can be read as dan protecting phil after the voldy leak/insecure about his sexuality/rough patch w phil/stress of moving to london etc but i just don't believe one would react that way if they were in a more than platonic relationship. some of dan’s comments sound genuinely distressed - for lack of a better word – (some would mention that dan's a ‘drama queen’ but that's not how i read them - i mean i also don't think someone would even say that about their close best friend but that did happen - so this is refutable (specical shoutout to the grandma ask lol))

Furthermore, a lot of the reason I don’t believe that they’re together are the little, ‘insignificant’ comments they’ve made over the past few years. (now I know I should be more specific about this but I honestly can’t recollect any of them rn soz – I used to have a lot of them I swear) – just to clarify these comments are not at all related to their previous default reliance on giving female pronouns to questions about hypothetical relationships when asked but about comments they’ve made about their lives.

I must mention that there are events/things that i can't explain (breach of biology laws being the operative one) – I don’t have a complete answer for this one, probably just that it was untrue answer, but I don’t know if I completely believe that idk

Sidenote- re the cherry tweets/mentions: I flirt with the idea that that they may have been a private/indirect joke about/with/to charlie skies etc

In saying all of this, there are a few things (that 0.06%) that do sometimes make me question the not together thing (I’ll be honest I think about this far too much and sometimes I have lapses where I think that they are together, but then I return back to ‘platonic’ belief (also side note- platonic is sometimes used here rather insidiously (imo) as if they can’t be very, very close and still be platonic. again, I must mention subjectivity here. I don’t deny at all that they’re incredibly, incredibly close people and have a relationship that far surpasses ‘normal’ (lol) best friends although I don’t believe it crosses over into romantic/sexual territory)

One of these factors that make me believe that there could be more to their relationship is indeed the no romantic partners for 6/7 years but idk about that one lol – one could argue that they did indeed have them and didn’t let people know as I don’t believe they would have –this can be argued with the idea that they would have been spotted if so but I’m not completely convinced by that idea

Also I remember reading about the idea that phil would have mentioned that he was single – as in a ‘it’s okay i’m single too and I’m doing just fine’- when someone was talking about how it sucks being single or something in a live show around valentine’s day – can’t remember this completely but I genuinely don’t believe it would be his thing to say that he was single, even if he were, because he is so private about that stuff

In saying this, the idea that due to the fact that they’re currently at the peak of their success (and still rapidly growing) they’re far too busy for romantic relationships is very, very plausible to me.

quick mention to the separate bedroom thing – a very small and insignificant thing but a thing nonetheless. now I have factored in the idea that they did move in mid 2012 – the infamous ‘no homo era’ so having two bedrooms would make sense but why would they spend more money on it unnecessarily, espec. when they didn’t have half as much money then as they do now (they mentioned a few times the possibility of getting a roommate)

Also, some mention it isn’t weird/strange at all to want to sleep in their own beds as they are v tall people and it would be difficult to sleep together and they like their own space etc. my general perception (again, subjective) is that they would be more or less people who like to sleep in the same bed as their romantic partner (dan’s mentioned a few times he considers himself to be a romantic person)

Also the thing where dan bought a new bed frame after his broke (ages ago now) and phil bought a new mattress recently, again it could be argued that they’re maintaining a bed for guests but idk that idea isn’t compelling to me.

So just to reiterate, I mostly/overall don’t believe they’re together. I’m not (most definitely not) opposed to them being together. there is a teeny, teeny, teeny tiny part of me that thinks that they may be more than platonic (a part that comes and goes.)

also I can most definitely see how people do believe they’re together, but reasons people believe they’re together are also reasons I don’t believe they are – again, we all read things differently despite looking at the exact same thing

it is that tiny unsure part of that keeps me around though I won’t deny that - I’m above the age of their target audience and it’s them as people/their relationship whatever it may be/ that keeps me around, not really their content, though I do enjoy it. The ambiguity. It kills.

this has been an incredibly incoherent mess and for that I apologise, if you want to discuss anything, I’m more than willing to and am all ears!

lol at this literally turning out to being over 1/3 the size of the essay (and only ½ hours worth of typing) I have due in 2 days that I’ve known about for weeks whoopsies

idk wrote:this is a long, long post that is an incredible mess so apologies for that!

(also, apologies for the deplorable use of grammar and punctuation in this! (I’ll defend myself by saying the linguistics degree student in me that has to use/discuss/analyse proper syntax etc so vigorously at uni makes my use of English online come out severely deformed))

There are many reasons i don't believe that dan and phil are together. (in a romantic/sexual/more than platonic relationship.) i put over on the other general dinof/ap thread that i was 110% anti-phan but it's more like 99.94% (and it's the 0.06% that keeps me round tbh I won’t lie)

Disclaimers:

Firstly, sorry this is so (embarrassingly) long – I intended it to be short, believe me, and then I got carried away

I’m probably (most definitely) making points other people have made before, so sorry for the repetition! ---- I’m re-reading over this to make sure it makes relative sense and just want to mention that after a quick scan of the thread thus far I actually believe that most/all? of the points I make have been mentioned/discussed before, so sorry for that! But these are what I believe so I’ll just keep them in for reiteration/support of others ideas.

Also just to disclaim that this belief doesn’t consider their sexualities at all– I personally am not that interested in that aspect of their lives and more on the relationship between the two of them but I completely understand the need/want for representation from others etc but that’s another topic for another day (and while I do have my beliefs about what their sexualities are- that’s also another discussion for another day)

- saw a few mentions about heteronormativity for thinking they're not together, i don't believe i'm susceptible to falling into this trap, i could be wrong but I don’t believe I am.

Re: the idea that people believe everything that d/p say – I most definitely don’t fall into that category lol

also, aside from the fact that i'm a cynical and pessimistic person by nature and it's more than likely i'm 'anti-phan' (side note i just want to clarify that i'm not anti-phan in the sense that i'm against them being together i just don't believe they are and if it turns out that they are indeed together i would be endlessly happy bc it would be very, very cute) because i may just be protecting myself from the second hand sadness and angst if it were to turn out that they aren't together. (which would imply that i'm expecting them not to be together (so wouldn't this mean that i don't believe that they are together? Idk.))

also I shipped a RL, famous couple from the years of 2008/9 to early 2013 and they, devastatingly, broke up and I was so, so invested in them/their fandom for many years, so there are lingering effects of that here too hahah. it was traumatising tbh

also, also I just wanted to mention that i was heavily invested in the 2008-2011 British yt scene (although not actually dan and phil (unfortunately) lol but more the –trigger warning- chameleon circuit crew (barf now soz –still fond of Charlie though))) so I also largely factor in the general environment of that scene into my thoughts – it was so ship/queer bait-y

so, the fact that they actually have denied being together/being more than platonic right from the start of their friendship is a big reason I don’t believe they are together. (also clarifying that i have literally been through all 58 threads of the site that shall not be named, have read the phan timelines /seen voldy (110% completely believe it's a prank that they did realise would be too far) aka i'm not basing this off of not seeing enough evidence/research (i definitely have))

forgive me if i'm wrong and feel free to point out my errors but specific instances of this are that there were dailybooths mentioning that phil didn't turn around - on the nakedbooth @ phil's house etc (as unbelievable that it is.) the whole 'yes i like sleeping platonically in the same bed as my friends’ then mentioning phil - implying it was platonic sleep. the whole if we did get together we would be an elite couple over pj and lex etc (paraphrasing) -emphasis on if we were to be in a relationship- yes i should be fact checking but i'm a busy student @ uni who really doesn't have the time to be doing this lol. all of this can be obviously laughed off as 'oh they're blatantly lying and just hiding the fact that they’re in a relationship’ but i don't read it that way (subjectivity and all that jazz)

As mentioned above, re: voldy – definitely, completely, 100% think it was a prank gone wrong no matter the status of their relationship (but why would they leave it up on their channel for months if it was fake? Laziness lol. also perhaps they didn’t completely let go of the notion that it was a bad idea and could potentially have been harboured for future use (highly unlikely but an idea nonetheless)

Obviously dan’s 2012 'no homo' phase also plays into big part of why i don't believe they're together. Of course this can be read as dan protecting phil after the voldy leak/insecure about his sexuality/rough patch w phil/stress of moving to london etc but i just don't believe one would react that way if they were in a more than platonic relationship. some of dan’s comments sound genuinely distressed - for lack of a better word – (some would mention that dan's a ‘drama queen’ but that's not how i read them - i mean i also don't think someone would even say that about their close best friend but that did happen - so this is refutable (specical shoutout to the grandma ask lol))

Furthermore, a lot of the reason I don’t believe that they’re together are the little, ‘insignificant’ comments they’ve made over the past few years. (now I know I should be more specific about this but I honestly can’t recollect any of them rn soz – I used to have a lot of them I swear) – just to clarify these comments are not at all related to their previous default reliance on giving female pronouns to questions about hypothetical relationships when asked but about comments they’ve made about their lives.

I must mention that there are events/things that i can't explain (breach of biology laws being the operative one) – I don’t have a complete answer for this one, probably just that it was untrue answer, but I don’t know if I completely believe that idk

Sidenote- re the cherry tweets/mentions: I flirt with the idea that that they may have been a private/indirect joke about/with/to charlie skies etc

In saying all of this, there are a few things (that 0.06%) that do sometimes make me question the not together thing (I’ll be honest I think about this far too much and sometimes I have lapses where I think that they are together, but then I return back to ‘platonic’ belief (also side note- platonic is sometimes used here rather insidiously (imo) as if they can’t be very, very close and still be platonic. again, I must mention subjectivity here. I don’t deny at all that they’re incredibly, incredibly close people and have a relationship that far surpasses ‘normal’ (lol) best friends although I don’t believe it crosses over into romantic/sexual territory)

One of these factors that make me believe that there could be more to their relationship is indeed the no romantic partners for 6/7 years but idk about that one lol – one could argue that they did indeed have them and didn’t let people know as I don’t believe they would have –this can be argued with the idea that they would have been spotted if so but I’m not completely convinced by that idea

Also I remember reading about the idea that phil would have mentioned that he was single – as in a ‘it’s okay i’m single too and I’m doing just fine’- when someone was talking about how it sucks being single or something in a live show around valentine’s day – can’t remember this completely but I genuinely don’t believe it would be his thing to say that he was single, even if he were, because he is so private about that stuff

In saying this, the idea that due to the fact that they’re currently at the peak of their success (and still rapidly growing) they’re far too busy for romantic relationships is very, very plausible to me.

quick mention to the separate bedroom thing – a very small and insignificant thing but a thing nonetheless. now I have factored in the idea that they did move in mid 2012 – the infamous ‘no homo era’ so having two bedrooms would make sense but why would they spend more money on it unnecessarily, espec. when they didn’t have half as much money then as they do now (they mentioned a few times the possibility of getting a roommate)

Also, some mention it isn’t weird/strange at all to want to sleep in their own beds as they are v tall people and it would be difficult to sleep together and they like their own space etc. my general perception (again, subjective) is that they would be more or less people who like to sleep in the same bed as their romantic partner (dan’s mentioned a few times he considers himself to be a romantic person)

Also the thing where dan bought a new bed frame after his broke (ages ago now) and phil bought a new mattress recently, again it could be argued that they’re maintaining a bed for guests but idk that idea isn’t compelling to me.

So just to reiterate, I mostly/overall don’t believe they’re together. I’m not (most definitely not) opposed to them being together. there is a teeny, teeny, teeny tiny part of me that thinks that they may be more than platonic (a part that comes and goes.)

also I can most definitely see how people do believe they’re together, but reasons people believe they’re together are also reasons I don’t believe they are – again, we all read things differently despite looking at the exact same thing

it is that tiny unsure part of that keeps me around though I won’t deny that - I’m above the age of their target audience and it’s them as people/their relationship whatever it may be/ that keeps me around, not really their content, though I do enjoy it. The ambiguity. It kills.

this has been an incredibly incoherent mess and for that I apologise, if you want to discuss anything, I’m more than willing to and am all ears!

lol at this literally turning out to being over 1/3 the size of the essay (and only ½ hours worth of typing) I have due in 2 days that I’ve known about for weeks whoopsies

i don't know if i agree with everything you said in this post but thanks for taking your time to write it reading opinions about phan is my favourite thing, i was so happy when i saw that your post was so long i wish i could put my thoughts on 'phan' into words but i'm really confused and i don't really know what to believe atm

Initially when I watched Dan and Phil's videos it didn't even cross my mind that they might be together, I didn't get non-platonic vibes from them at all. Via tumblr I found out about the whole 2009 history and started considering that Phan might be real, but the more context and information I got about everything including the 2012 phase, I started doubting it, so I have never really been a Phan “believer“. I ship it in the sense that I would fully support them if they came out and like to imagine they are a couple but I don't actually believe it.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet (I think) are the denials by friends (PewDiePie, Louise, Catrific (sexuality), Bryarly, etc.) and most recently Phil's brother. Of course it's not sure if it is true what the fan said, but if it is: I can't believe that Martyn wouldn't know the truth about Phan or that he would lie for Dan and Phil about their relationship.
I also doubt that friends of Dan and Phil would simply deny Phan if they couldn't be sure that Phan was in fact not real (because Dan and Phil haven't told them anything about it or because they had a reason to think Dan and Phil might be lying to them about not being together as there are rumours in the community/incidents that suggest that they are actually dating, etc.). In that case I think these people would not bring up the topic themselves and ignore/avoid questions instead of answering them. Specifically to Cat: I doubt she would explicitly mention Dan's sexuality in a tweet (“straight friend“) if she was not convinced that Dan is straight. And I don't think she did this to cover up for Dan. I really don't want to believe Dan and Phil would go as far as asking their friends to lie for them and I also can't see all these people going along with that because why should they? It's not their business. Another thing is: if Dan and Phil did in fact even ask their friends to cover up for their relationship they probably have a good reason for wanting to hide it and I respect that. In that case I don't think one does them a favour by constantly questioning/overanalyzing everything they do and say in search of proof of a secret relationship that they apparently want to keep private.

In my opinion one should rather take things Dan said in 2009 with a grain of salt than what he said in 2012. In 2009 he was young, not as famous and he might not have thought about longterm consequences so it's plausible to me that he might have been incited to do and say things because they got positive attention. In 2012 he must have been much more aware that people of the Internet never forget. Dan never gave me a reason to think that the things he said 2012 aren't valid whereas he said he isn't anymore who he was 2009 and said that his formspring answers were full of lies. And I mean there is this one ask that is specifically about his sexuality to which Dan answered that he was prone to attention seeking and lying...
I don't quite understand why some people are convinced Dan must have been in some kind of denial in 2012 caused by insecurity of sexuality and general life stresses which is why he was angry and denied being attracted to men/implied he was lying about being bisexual and denied Phan. I don't think he would act so aggressively against shippers if their behaviour (claiming something that is not true) wasn't the direct cause of his annoyance. And what is the sexuality insecurity assumption based on? Of course I might be wrong and clearly ultimately no one knows how Dan really feels but I've never gotten the impression Dan would have a problem with not being straight. I mean in 2009 he obviously had no problem with stating he was bisexual and saying/doing things that could be interpreted as him being together with Phil. Even during 2012 he said numerous times that he was totally fine with people being gay and there is no evidence that his parents or friends would not be accepting of him if he was bi/gay....and obviously the fandom was supportive of him and a potential relationship with Phil as well.
If Dan was lying about Phan in 2012 I think it was rather because him and Phil wanted to keep the relationship private as they considered it noone's business and didn't want things to get awkward. However if the shippers were actually right about Phan and Dan did only deny Phan to cover up the relationship I think he would have been more careful/polite in his denials. He must have been aware that if ever turned out that Phan was/is real many people would lose respect for him for lying blatantly and attacking shippers by saying it was totally crazy and delusional to believe in Phan. As others I can specifically not imagine him saying the grandma comment if he was in a relationship with Phil. How would he justify such a strong statement if Phan ever turned out real, it would have been safer and easier to simply answer “I don't know” to deny Phan. It might be kind of insensitive towards Phil no matter their relation but I think it's more likely that he would say something like that if he genuinely wanted to make clear that he is simply not attracted to Phil's dick and it makes sense to me that he said it would feel “wrong“ when they were in fact platonic friends.
To me it's plausible that Dan told the truth when he said the reason for his annoyance in relation to Phan were people spreading lies behind his back because they were taking the shipping too far aka treating Phan like a definite truth to the point that it affected his behaviour towards Phil. I think it is understandable that you get angry at some point if people constantly claim something about you that is not true and misinterpret your behaviour. It was the same with Larry in 2012. Louis said himself the shipping was fun at first but got annoying as it affected the way him and Harry could behave in public as shippers read into every move. There were constantly fans claiming Larry is real, so he got angry called Larry “the biggest bullshit“ and denied being gay.

Can someone tell me which of the things that Dan said in 2012 are considered homophobic exactly? Denying that he is gay or saying he doesn't want to taste Phil's dick doesn't make him homophobic? Only because he doesn't like something that doesn't mean he has a problem with others liking it. He also said he has no problem with shipping per se/the idea of Phan itself but rather with people treating their speculations like reality by saying Phan is real. I'm pretty sure Dan was not homophobic in 2012 and he has said so multiple times.

Thank you, anjax! I believe your post helps me put in clear, concise and final way why i don't believe in phan (even though i don't agree with some of your points):

Dan denied it. Phil somewhat denied it. Their friends and family denied it. For me to believe it, there has to be overwhelming evidence in support of it, one that remains evidence for non-biased perception. There simply isn't.

Now Dan better be queer or gtfo with his queerbaiting ass by now, seriously

anjax wrote: One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet (I think) are the denials by friends (PewDiePie, Louise, Catrific (sexuality), Bryarly, etc.) and most recently Phil's brother. Of course it's not sure if it is true what the fan said, but if it is: I can't believe that Martyn wouldn't know the truth about Phan or that he would lie for Dan and Phil about their relationship.

Wouldn't he, though? There are plenty of good reasons why Phan probably isn't real, like a lot of the reasons you brought up, but this isn't one of them. If Dan and Phil want to keep their relationship private and Martyn is aware of that fact, why would he tell a random overeager fan at the merch stand about it?

Specifically to Cat: I doubt she would explicitly mention Dan's sexuality in a tweet (“straight friend“) if she was not convinced that Dan is straight.

I do wonder about that tweet sometimes myself, but if it's true, then the alternative is that Dan is queerbaiting the hell out of his audience at the moment with all of his casual male attraction mentions.. which is really not cool. I'd like to think that he's too self-aware to do that in 2016. Or maybe he's just a dick, but I don't think so.

I don't quite understand why some people are convinced Dan must have been in some kind of denial in 2012 caused by insecurity of sexuality and general life stresses which is why he was angry and denied being attracted to men/implied he was lying about being bisexual and denied Phan.

You're mixing up the issue of Dan's sexuality with Phan denial, when they are two things that should be addressed separately. This isn't a personal attack, as I see a lot of people do this when bringing up 2012, but it does irk me somewhat.

I don't think he would act so aggressively against shippers if their behaviour (claiming something that is not true) wasn't the direct cause of his annoyance. And what is the sexuality insecurity assumption based on? Of course I might be wrong and clearly ultimately no one knows how Dan really feels but I've never gotten the impression Dan would have a problem with not being straight. I mean in 2009 he obviously had no problem with stating he was bisexual and saying/doing things that could be interpreted as him being together with Phil. Even during 2012 he said numerous times that he was totally fine with people being gay and there is no evidence that his parents or friends would not be accepting of him if he was bi/gay....and obviously the fandom was supportive of him and a potential relationship with Phil as well.
Can someone tell me which of the things that Dan said in 2012 are considered homophobic exactly? Denying that he is gay or saying he doesn't want to taste Phil's dick doesn't make him homophobic? Only because he doesn't like something that doesn't mean he has a problem with others liking it. He also said he has no problem with shipping per se/the idea of Phan itself but rather with people treating their speculations like reality by saying Phan is real. I'm pretty sure Dan was not homophobic in 2012 and he has said so multiple times.

It's good that you mentioned the sexuality insecurity/homophobia thing because people keep bringing it up, and I want to make a masterpost and add it to the forum.

bedhead91 wrote:

anjax wrote: One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet (I think) are the denials by friends (PewDiePie, Louise, Catrific (sexuality), Bryarly, etc.) and most recently Phil's brother. Of course it's not sure if it is true what the fan said, but if it is: I can't believe that Martyn wouldn't know the truth about Phan or that he would lie for Dan and Phil about their relationship.

Wouldn't he, though? There are plenty of good reasons why Phan probably isn't real, like a lot of the reasons you brought up, but this isn't one of them. If Dan and Phil want to keep their relationship private and Martyn is aware of that fact, why would he tell a random overeager fan at the merch stand about it?

This. If your sibling was famous and in a secret relationship to protect their privacy from invasive fans you wouldn't tell those fans that the relationship is real when asked!
When asked directly it makes perfect sense Martyn or anyone that they class as a friend would lie for them because admitting it would be outing them against their wishes and refusing to answer would practically be as bad as confirming it. No one would want to do that to someone they care about and I'm sure they'd lie to strangers if need be (particularly as we are talking about strangers that were gross and invasive enough to be asking them in the first place).

When their friends choose to issue denials when no one asked them or when they choose to go beyond denying and make comments like the idea of shipping them is crazy to them etc then I understand why people think it's "proof" Phan is not real (some comments have made me wonder too) but not when they have been asked directly and simply say no they are not together. That to me would be the quintessential reaction from the friends and family of someone trying to hide their relationship.

^ This. I can see how some of the so-called phan proof may be counter-argumented, but I don't understand how their friends denying it is really any type of proof. They may be telling the truth, of course, but they may be lying as well, because ahem outing your friends is kind of a bad move

I also believe PewDiePie is a little phan trash because of some of his weird comments about them, and well...Catrific defended Joey Graceffa's honor until he came out of the closet (she even made The Boyfriend Tag with him, fyi)

Ticia wrote:^ This. I can see how some of the so-called phan proof may be counter-argumented, but I don't understand how their friends denying it is really any type of proof. They may be telling the truth, of course, but they may be lying as well, because ahem outing your friends is kind of a bad move

I also believe PewDiePie is a little phan trash because of some of his weird comments about them, and well...Catrific defended Joey Graceffa's honor until he came out of the closet (she even made The Boyfriend Tag with him, fyi)

Honestly, if I'd take any of the friend's comments as anti-phan, it'd be Pewdiepie's. He doesn't so much as deny it as make little sexual jokes that would be quuuite inappropriate if he knew and/or believed them to actually be in a closeted relationship.

I do wonder what Cornelia's recent vaguetweeting alluded to...

If they are straight, I'm sorry for the guys (and a bit pissed, because of a few queerbaiting events) and I don't think they would ever come out (like Bowie did), unless the Phandom will disappear and their sexualities won't matter that much.
Dan back in 2012 was pissed. Mainly he was pissed at the situation that they both got themselves into because back in the day they were young, stupid and attention seeking. This cheap way of getting attention spawned into this beast and now they're the biggest youtube stars whose fame is mainly because of their personal relationship.
I also wouldn't be surprised if Dan had a crush on somebody back in 2012, but the person was well aware of his youtube fanbase and said nope, because reasons (I think you must be mental if you'd want to date one of them, knowing how involved are their die hard fans). Of course, it's just my imagination running, but trying to get rid of the "closeted homo" label was really obvious.

gnostic wrote:

Ticia wrote:^ This. I can see how some of the so-called phan proof may be counter-argumented, but I don't understand how their friends denying it is really any type of proof. They may be telling the truth, of course, but they may be lying as well, because ahem outing your friends is kind of a bad move

I also believe PewDiePie is a little phan trash because of some of his weird comments about them, and well...Catrific defended Joey Graceffa's honor until he came out of the closet (she even made The Boyfriend Tag with him, fyi)

Honestly, if I'd take any of the friend's comments as anti-phan, it'd be Pewdiepie's. He doesn't so much as deny it as make little sexual jokes that would be quuuite inappropriate if he knew and/or believed them to actually be in a closeted relationship.

I do wonder what Cornelia's recent vaguetweeting alluded to...

I honestly don't think Cornelia's vaguetweeting has anything to do with them. She's an adult woman with her own life and her own problems, after all.

I’m finally making my post here! I apologise for repeating opinions that have already been stated but I’m too lazy to read everything back and search for quotes.

I would say I’m Phanagnostic but my view of if they are together or not changes all the time. I understand arguments from both sides however my general mood also influences the way I look at them. I also ship them and I wish they were together, so I realise that wishful thinking can cloud my opinion on their relationship. That’s why I try to take a step back sometimes (and take my phan googles off) and what I’m left with is a leaning towards the they-are-not-together side.

- I don’t remember seeing anything romantic between them until I discovered Phan. And when I try to objectively interpret their interactions now they seem like platonic best friends to me. Personally I feel like a certain “care” or “tenderness”, that most partner have for each other, is missing between them. Now I know relationships come in different forms and the way partners interact with each other can be different from relationship to relationship, but their interactions sometimes just scream mate to me. It’s really difficult for me to find examples, since it’s just a general vibe I get from them.

- I don’t see the flirting on social media in 2009 as proof. Like a lot of people have said already: People used to flirt on social media during that time and bisexuality was in (especially for men). I don’t want to accuse them of being complete liars (and of course it doesn’t mean that all people that said they were bisexual during that time were lying), but I find it incomprehensible how a lot of people see it as definite phan proof, without considering the possibility of them just not being completely honest. All their answers and tweets were really vague and they never confirmed anything about them. If they were actually comfortable enough to make people believe there is something between them, why would they not be comfortable enough to confirm the relationship?
I’m not saying they sat down together to form a crazy scheme about making everybody believe they are together, but they probably just went along with it and did what everybody else did on social media to be popular.

- The voldy video is something I can’t make my mind up about. I do think their explanation about it being an April fool’s joke is plausible.
The thing that always struck me as unreal was how Phil only listed things that we could back up through social media, which made it seem really calculated. The way it was edited also reminded me of his normal videos he'd upload to youtube.
On the other hand there were moments when I watched the video and it did feel quite genuine to me.

- Then there are also situations or comments that would be unnatural if they were in a relationship. And I really can’t imagine them going through the effort of actively constructing these situations just to make it seem like they are platonic friends.
One of these situations is in one of Louises vlog where she stayed over and Phil made the bed in the office (somebody already mentioned that a few pages back). Of course there is nothing wrong with couples sleeping in separate beds, but I’d imagine they would sleep in one bed together and let Louise sleep in the other one in that situation.

All those points make me lean towards the phan-is-not-real side, but like I said my view of their relationship changes a lot and also gets influenced by other opinions I read here.
There are arguments that do make me believe in the possibility of them being in a relationship:

- Their inseparableness: they are together in pretty much every aspect of their life
- The way their branding changed in the last few years. What they are selling now is “Dan and Phil” (or Phan) and they probably made the decision for their branding with the knowledge that their future would have to stay intertwined.
- The way they (mostly Dan) sometimes place themselves in each other’s future or how they don’t seem to consider a future career without each other.

I don’t think I have to elaborate on those arguments any further, since they seem to be the main pro-phan reasoning here. Besides this post is already long enough (also took me long enough and helped me procrastinate ).

aosagi wrote: There are arguments that do make me believe in the possibility of them being in a relationship:

- Their inseparableness: they are together in pretty much every aspect of their life
- The way their branding changed in the last few years. What they are selling now is “Dan and Phil” (or Phan) and they probably made the decision for their branding with the knowledge that their future would have to stay intertwined.
- The way they (mostly Dan) sometimes place themselves in each other’s future or how they don’t seem to consider a future career without each other.

Aka things it's completely normal to do /think/say in relation to your best friend, especially in absence of a significant other?

As to voldy video, why doesn't anyone ever think it was prank mixed with a publicity trick? Ah, probably because no one wants to think the boys would stoop so low.

gnostic wrote:

aosagi wrote: There are arguments that do make me believe in the possibility of them being in a relationship:

- Their inseparableness: they are together in pretty much every aspect of their life
- The way their branding changed in the last few years. What they are selling now is “Dan and Phil” (or Phan) and they probably made the decision for their branding with the knowledge that their future would have to stay intertwined.
- The way they (mostly Dan) sometimes place themselves in each other’s future or how they don’t seem to consider a future career without each other.

Aka things it's completely normal to do /think/say in relation to your best friend, especially in absence of a significant other?

As to voldy video, why doesn't anyone ever think it was prank mixed with a publicity trick? Ah, probably because no one wants to think the boys would stoop so low.

Well, it is not quite normal to practically do everything with your best friend, including travelling to the other side of the country for the other person's Father's day and going always on holiday with them. Best friend that hasn't had any romantic relationship (or any other romantic interest, nor any real rumor) for years, just like you.

About the v-day, aka one of the most discussed things in the phandom as a whole:

gnostic wrote:

aosagi wrote: There are arguments that do make me believe in the possibility of them being in a relationship:

- Their inseparableness: they are together in pretty much every aspect of their life
- The way their branding changed in the last few years. What they are selling now is “Dan and Phil” (or Phan) and they probably made the decision for their branding with the knowledge that their future would have to stay intertwined.
- The way they (mostly Dan) sometimes place themselves in each other’s future or how they don’t seem to consider a future career without each other.

Aka things it's completely normal to do /think/say in relation to your best friend, especially in absence of a significant other?

As to voldy video, why doesn't anyone ever think it was prank mixed with a publicity trick? Ah, probably because no one wants to think the boys would stoop so low.

Rehashed stuff that should really go into some kind of Phan 101 masterpost on this forum somewhere:

I agree with you that their ''inseparableness'' doesn't necessarily means they are together. I also don't think going everywhere or doing everything with your best friend is as weird as some people think it is. Also, just because they have branded themselves a a duo doesn't mean anything. As best friends, it is actually more likely that they will be in each others lives in the future then if they were dating.

As for Voldy...there are various arguments for Voldy being real that I don't think hold weight. The first one is that ''there weren't any shippers'' in 2010, which is completely wrong. The second is that Phil seems very sincere in the video...well, he does, but that could just be the Phan goggles talking. He's also got a great poker face and can lie pretty effortlessly on camera, so there's that.

The reason why people generally have trouble believing it was a prank was because they filmed and uploaded the video two months before April Fool's Day. I don't even plan a flight two months in advance. It's hard to believe that that these two procrastinators would put that much planning into a silly April Fool's prank. As for it being ''a publicity stunt''....lol I'm cynical as hell, but even I'm not that cynical.

Ticia wrote:

gnostic wrote:

aosagi wrote: There are arguments that do make me believe in the possibility of them being in a relationship:

- Their inseparableness: they are together in pretty much every aspect of their life
- The way their branding changed in the last few years. What they are selling now is “Dan and Phil” (or Phan) and they probably made the decision for their branding with the knowledge that their future would have to stay intertwined.
- The way they (mostly Dan) sometimes place themselves in each other’s future or how they don’t seem to consider a future career without each other.

Aka things it's completely normal to do /think/say in relation to your best friend, especially in absence of a significant other?

As to voldy video, why doesn't anyone ever think it was prank mixed with a publicity trick? Ah, probably because no one wants to think the boys would stoop so low.

Well, it is not quite normal to practically do everything with your best friend, including travelling to the other side of the country for the other person's Father's day and going always on holiday with them. Best friend that hasn't had any romantic relationship (or any other romantic interest, nor any real rumor) for years, just like you.

About the v-day, aka one of the most discussed things in the phandom as a whole:

regardless of Phil's acting skills, the things that made me believe it was 100% real were, on one hand, that when it was recorded most subscribers assumed they were together and, if they weren't, no one really cared (remember that by then their audiences weren't even a half of what they're now) and, on the other hand, the dates: recorded and uploaded the night before Valentine's? and then you decide to call it off but leave the video up for months?

Phil does go on holiday with his family without Dan so it's not like they always go on holiday together...and I don't find it odd that you spend so much time with your best friend, it's plaubile to do so especially if they don't have so many other close friends and especially if they both aren't in a relationship with somebody.

There have been many studies that show humans are pretty bad at detecting liars, they are hardly better than the chance, one does not need extraordinary good acting skills to be a liar. So the argument that it seems real doesn't count for me, especially as Phil could think of everything he wanted to say exactly/write a script. Why can't it be that they spontanously came up with the idea when they realized that it would be Valentine's Day soon? It makes sense that you would include exactly the things that people know about in the video if you want to prank them (so that it seems real) and apart from that it is also normal and intuitive that you base a lie on things that have actually happened and simply add a few things that are not true/modify it a bit because it is easier to tell a story that is half true than to make up everything.
To your last argument one can counter argue why would they leave something so private on youtube, why would they even upload something so private on youtube, whereas it seems more likely to me that Phil was too lazy or forgot to take it down if it is not real because there was no “risk“. Yes their audience was not as big as it is today but it's all about perspective, it was big then.

bedhead91 wrote: The reason why people generally have trouble believing it was a prank was because they filmed and uploaded the video two months before April Fool's Day. I don't even plan a flight two months in advance. It's hard to believe that that these two procrastinators would put that much planning into a silly April Fool's prank. As for it being ''a publicity stunt''....lol I'm cynical as hell, but even I'm not that cynical.

Actually that's not something people talk about very often, but it's what makes me believe the most the video was not a prank: Dan and Phil had problems being consistent with their uploading schedule from the very beginning, there is no way they would have planned this two months in advance. If they had uploaded more often, then I would (maybe) consider it being a prank, but as things were it makes 0 sense to me.

annetamiau wrote:

bedhead91 wrote: The reason why people generally have trouble believing it was a prank was because they filmed and uploaded the video two months before April Fool's Day. I don't even plan a flight two months in advance. It's hard to believe that that these two procrastinators would put that much planning into a silly April Fool's prank. As for it being ''a publicity stunt''....lol I'm cynical as hell, but even I'm not that cynical.

Actually that's not something people talk about very often, but it's what makes me believe the most the video was not a prank: Dan and Phil had problems being consistent with their uploading schedule from the very beginning, there is no way they would have planned this two months in advance. If they had uploaded more often, then I would (maybe) consider it being a prank, but as things were it makes 0 sense to me.

Well I don't think they were like “what could we do for April's Fool's Day?" so that they would have planned the video months in advance but rather came up with the idea to prank shippers because of Valentine's Day and then thought that nobody would believe them that it was a prank when the video would have been published on any other day than April's Fool's day.

It is in fact VERY EASY to imagine the video being uploaded on valentines day if its a prank/stunt. This is the kind of thing that comes to your mind around Valentines day (hey Phil, VDay is coming -yeah our subscribers probably feel like we are beside ourselves buying presents for each other lol - we should totally troll them). No one would believe it so easily if it wasnt uploaded on that day. Alternatively, if its a publicity stunt, its AGAIN had to be uploaded on vday.

And i do believe that at some point they sincerely thought this might have been too much. Maybe they were debating it when it got unprivated. Either way, its easier to imagine them coming up with this idea arund valentine's day and keeping it till April 1, then the other way round

bedhead91 wrote: Wouldn't he, though? There are plenty of good reasons why Phan probably isn't real, like a lot of the reasons you brought up, but this isn't one of them. If Dan and Phil want to keep their relationship private and Martyn is aware of that fact, why would he tell a random overeager fan at the merch stand about it?

Rethinking it, I agree that Phil's brother would be more likely to lie for them than their friends, also because (as pearshaped34 said) he was asked in person and a non-answer would have been considered “suspicous“.

bedhead91 wrote: You're mixing up the issue of Dan's sexuality with Phan denial, when they are two things that should be addressed separately. This isn't a personal attack, as I see a lot of people do this when bringing up 2012, but it does irk me somewhat.

I was confused because some posts like for example this one

bedhead91 wrote: (He does infuriate me, though, reading back those customer service department replies. If I didn't see it as the insecure vitriol of someone struggling with their sexuality, I would have wanted to back in time just to tell him to stop being a drama queen.

made me think insecurity/struggling with sexuality is used to justify his Phan denials (customer service blog answers). But maybe I misunderstood you and others, I interpreted it as 'he was insecure about being perceived as not straight and therefore in respect to Phan he didn't want people to think that he might be in a relationship with Phil‘.

bedhead91 wrote: I do think that Dan seemed massively insecure in his own sexuality at the time, far beyond just being 'misleading about his sexuality.' He seemed to get genuinely offended when people asked him if he was gay, to the point that he came across as homophobic.

Judging from what I've seen (maybe I missed some things so it's good that you plan to make a master post) I didn't get the impression he was “genuinely offended“ by being asked if he was gay. I mean he said things like “I'm not gay but thank you, if you say I am I guess that's only a compliment“ or “Do you want me to be? Unfortunately not, no.“ It's not like he reacted “no, why the hell, when do you finally understand it, I AM NOT GAY!!!!“ that's what I would consider “offended to the point it came across as homophobic“. He might have seemed a bit irritated when he made a joke and people didn't get it or because they made stupid comments ("your hair looks gay") or genereally I would say because people were so obsessed with the topic and asked him pretty often and he got the impression that many people wanted him to be gay so he felt the need to repeatedly clarify it.

bedhead91 wrote: I do wonder about that tweet sometimes myself, but if it's true, then the alternative is that Dan is queerbaiting the hell out of his audience at the moment with all of his casual male attraction mentions.. which is really not cool. I'd like to think that he's too self-aware to do that in 2016. Or maybe he's just a dick, but I don't think so.

Judging from his answer in that Sunday Times interview I don't think Dan will ever reveal his sexual orientation, so he might feel free to say these things that would be considered queerbaiting if it was known that he is straight (or if at least the majority of the fans was convinced that he is straight). In my opinion Dan's attitude is like 'why use a label if it is much more convenient and safer not say anything‘ because whatever he says these days (but especially if he says straight) there will be some people who are disappointed (be it shippers, girls who want to “marry him“,...) so maybe he thinks it's better to let everyone have their personal belief about his sexual orientation.

bedhead91 wrote: I mean, if the flirting and the Voldy video was just a fabricated mess of lies that he and Phil orchestrated, he had absolutely no right to get so upset at the idea that people thought they were together. They made their own beds and all that.)

I agree that one can criticize him for getting angry about something that he is responsible for in the sense that had he never done or said certain things then there would be no Phan rumours. According to him they only “used to joke around like anyone else would without a second thought“ but it was a bit questionable behaviour because, if it was in fact only joking it was not that obvious and therefore potentially misleading. But other people used to joke around about attraction as well and Dan and Phil could not foresee how much of a big deal the 2009 things would ever become. And I understand that it can be frustrating when you regret some of the things you have done and clear up things but people don't listen to you and constantly dig up old stuff you said. And I don't think one can blame them for Voldy as they didn't go through with it and when it was published accidentally they made pretty clear from the beginning that it was a prank. They cannot do anything else than that, it's what people make out of it because they don't believe their word.

anjax wrote:
Why can't it be that they spontanously came up with the idea when they realized that it would be Valentine's Day soon? It makes sense that you would include exactly the things that people know about in the video if you want to prank them (so that it seems real) and apart from that it is also normal and intuitive that you base a lie on things that have actually happened and simply add a few things that are not true/modify it a bit because it is easier to tell a story that is half true than to make up everything.
To your last argument one can counter argue why would they leave something so private on youtube, why would they even upload something so private on youtube, whereas it seems more likely to me that Phil was too lazy or forgot to take it down if it is not real because there was no “risk“. Yes their audience was not as big as it is today but it's all about perspective, it was big then.

gnostic wrote:It is in fact VERY EASY to imagine the video being uploaded on valentines day if its a prank/stunt. This is the kind of thing that comes to your mind around Valentines day (hey Phil, VDay is coming -yeah our subscribers probably feel like we are beside ourselves buying presents for each other lol - we should totally troll them). No one would believe it so easily if it wasnt uploaded on that day. Alternatively, if its a publicity stunt, its AGAIN had to be uploaded on vday.

And i do believe that at some point they sincerely thought this might have been too much. Maybe they were debating it when it got unprivated. Either way, its easier to imagine them coming up with this idea arund valentine's day and keeping it till April 1, then the other way round

Yes, I agree with this. Everybody seems to argue how out of character it is for them to plan a prank 2 months in advance. When you look at it in retrospect it may seem like the video was made early for their standards, but in reality there probably wasn't a lot of actual planning involved. They most likely got the idea around valentines day and thought "Since April is coming up, why not make it a April's fool prank?".

About the argument "why would they leave it on youtube?": maybe laziness/procrastination/forgetting about it/ or they just didn't consider the possibility of the video being unprivated by accident. Why would they, if it never happened to them before?
You can make the argument of "why wouldn't they delete it?" now, because you know now that there is a risk in leaving a private video on youtube (and they know that too now), since you saw the worst-case scenario of a video being made public unintentionally. I guess a lot of people would have just left the video there during those years, because they just didn't think that there would be a potential risk.

I also don't see "they didn't have many subscribers/they weren't shipped" as an convincing argument. I don't now how many subscribers they had, but they probably had a fair amount of subscribers for that time and also compared with other youtubers. And I do think there were enough shippers among them, since dan and phil practically invited it with their ambiguous tweets and behavior in their videos. After all they did get enough questions and comments about their sexuality/relationship.

aosagi wrote: I also don't see "they didn't have many subscribers/they weren't shipped" as an convincing argument. I don't now how many subscribers they had, but they probably had a fair amount of subscribers for that time and also compared with other youtubers. And I do think there were enough shippers among them, since dan and phil practically invited it with their ambiguous tweets and behavior in their videos. After all they did get enough questions and comments about their sexuality/relationship.

I wasn't in the phandom back then either, but I have read opinions on this matter from some of their early-on subscribers (2009, 2010) and they generally agreed that there was no such thing as phandom because they assumed they were together (from their not-that-ambiguous tweets and their interactions in dailybooth). Sure enough, it may only have been their own perceptions, so if anyone around this forum wants to add his/her own two cents...

Ticia wrote: I wasn't in the phandom back then either, but I have read opinions on this matter from some of their early-on subscribers (2009, 2010) and they generally agreed that there was no such thing as phandom because they assumed they were together (from their not-that-ambiguous tweets and their interactions in dailybooth). Sure enough, it may only have been their own perceptions, so if anyone around this forum wants to add his/her own two cents...

I was not in the phandom during that time, but I recently watched: (❆ I WANT SNOW! ❆) again and out of sheer boredom decided to scroll through comments until I reached the first one. I read every comment from around that time period, and only 2 mentioned Dan by name (other comments mentioned him as the "hot guy @ 1:11 or 1:44). The 2 mentions that knew who danisnotonfire was asked if they were dating or something along those lines.

Kind of irrelevant, but there you have it!

hi!
this is my first of probably not many posts on here. there's just something that's been on my mind for more than a year and it stuck, so i felt like i should write something about it. i haven't seen this topic disscussed here before.
in the porn video with tyler, dan didn't know what an enema was. i think if d really wanted to get together with p back in 2009/10 (his first relationshipship with a guy), that would've been quite scary at first( i know from experience). so i think he must've looked up ots of stuff about gay sex, even if he found it scary at first, and i can't imagine him not reading something about an enema then. so what i'm trying to say is that i think they weren't seriously flirting back in the old days, they did it mainly for the attention. i don't think they were in a relationship ever (or at least dan has never been with a guy all the way) based on this.
d might have found p attractive, but that still doesn't mean he's bi and he just wanted to get recognised by a famous youtuber(which obviously lead to a strong friendship, etc.).
but i also belive that voldy is a legit vid, not a prank, so i can't really decide.


the other thing is that d was really fcking rude and cruel to p, and said some really hurtful things to him. maybe p knows d doesn't mean those things, but sometimes i just feel so bad for p. yeah, it's annoying when people just don't understand that this hardcore shipping is too much for d&p, but still, i wouldn't be so rude and hurt my best friend if i was d. he's just too defensive, which is a bit suspicous.

breadandbutter wrote: in the porn video with tyler, dan didn't know what an enema was. i think if d really wanted to get together with p back in 2009/10 (his first relationshipship with a guy), that would've been quite scary at first( i know from experience). so i think he must've looked up ots of stuff about gay sex, even if he found it scary at first, and i can't imagine him not reading something about an enema then.

this has come up a few times actually, i'll give my best summary of what i and other people (with various views on phan) came to.
dan's joked about enemas before, both in context of specific fics or just in general, and definitely knows what they are. however, people that saw the video confirmed that the equipment for it is the full, medical, fetishy set - it's not what the average person having anal will have. what's assumed is that he hadn't seen that type of equipment enough to immediately know what it was. it wasn't the sort you can buy in a pharmacy or from a tame website, which is what he'd more likely be familiar with, if he'd used one before.
but the majority of male-male couples don't actually have anal sex, and an enema (the extent of in porn like that) isn't common or necessary.