Dan & Phil Part 35: knock knock, who’s there, i hate you

[sweetmm]

I've actually been wondering/thinking about this topic for a while, especially the part I bolded. I'm a bit too lazy atm to go find receipts (maybe I'll try tomorrow) but there seems to be a lot of instances where dan's discussed only in context of his looks, but in a different way than how most male youtubers are treated (at least from what I've noticed). please correct me if I'm wrong because I'm not an avid fan of any other youtubers, but it seems youtubers don't focus on the looks of attractive male youtubers (only person I can think of is casper lee for some reason). they will obviously comment, but in a more typical "oh haha he's cute, he works out, he gets all the #ladies" type way.
Dan gets sexualized in a different way where, if he were a woman, would be seen as disgusting/offensive/I can't think of the right word. The only specific examples I can cite with certainty is the whole onion debacle (ugh), shane dawson's comments, and the vidcon laughing at/with us panel. in all three examples dan is objectified in a way no one else is in the videos.
the vidcon panel is a strong example of this--the crowds cheer louder for dan than the others, and the host automatically acts like the audience are fans of dan's appearence and not dan as a creator.
while it's not the only time shane discusses dan in a sexual way, in the vid where shane watches youdatubers' first video, shane uses explicit sexual language to describe dan, and while he recycles a couple of the jokes to describe felix it's not treated the same way. in these situations people find dan's treatment fine/funny, while if someone like zoella was treated the exact same way it would be seen as extremely problematic.
Even in offhanded/quick comments dan's appearance is often what's mentioned. the only specific example I can cite off the top of my head is from the boncas vlog tomska made, where he shows how watch time was higher when dan and phil appeared. The only comment he made was how dan looked pretty i mean, he's not lying. this seems like it's not a big deal, but this is just one example of something that happens quite often.
I'm sorry, this has all prob been talked about before, and I can't even remember why i thought this would be worth talking about. although i do wonder why it's dan who's treated this way?

I absolutely agree, people treat him in an unacceptable way but get away with it because he is "a dude". Imagine if someone just came near Zoella and casually started grinding on her while she lookеd vaguely uncomfortable? There would be an outrage. I think Dan suffers a lot from people assuming that pretty = dumb and therefore Phil must be the brains behind the operation because he is ugly, therefore smart. This is however not helped by the "dan girls" who are subbed to him for his look and the accent, not because they find his content in any way interesting.
To me this is also a reason why he rarely bothers to form any sort of meaningful relationships with other youtubers, he comes with the preconceived notion that he is not smart and good only for his trusty legion of viewers and that's why he only ever collabs (on his channel) with people he is actually friends with (Tyler, Louise) or whose content he likes or just plain fancies COUGH (jack's gap, Connor Franta).

Phil is ugly? :wtf:

[nephilimcat]

I've actually been wondering/thinking about this topic for a while, especially the part I bolded. I'm a bit too lazy atm to go find receipts (maybe I'll try tomorrow) but there seems to be a lot of instances where dan's discussed only in context of his looks, but in a different way than how most male youtubers are treated (at least from what I've noticed). please correct me if I'm wrong because I'm not an avid fan of any other youtubers, but it seems youtubers don't focus on the looks of attractive male youtubers (only person I can think of is casper lee for some reason). they will obviously comment, but in a more typical "oh haha he's cute, he works out, he gets all the #ladies" type way.
Dan gets sexualized in a different way where, if he were a woman, would be seen as disgusting/offensive/I can't think of the right word. The only specific examples I can cite with certainty is the whole onion debacle (ugh), shane dawson's comments, and the vidcon laughing at/with us panel. in all three examples dan is objectified in a way no one else is in the videos.
the vidcon panel is a strong example of this--the crowds cheer louder for dan than the others, and the host automatically acts like the audience are fans of dan's appearence and not dan as a creator.
while it's not the only time shane discusses dan in a sexual way, in the vid where shane watches youdatubers' first video, shane uses explicit sexual language to describe dan, and while he recycles a couple of the jokes to describe felix it's not treated the same way. in these situations people find dan's treatment fine/funny, while if someone like zoella was treated the exact same way it would be seen as extremely problematic.
Even in offhanded/quick comments dan's appearance is often what's mentioned. the only specific example I can cite off the top of my head is from the boncas vlog tomska made, where he shows how watch time was higher when dan and phil appeared. The only comment he made was how dan looked pretty i mean, he's not lying. this seems like it's not a big deal, but this is just one example of something that happens quite often.
I'm sorry, this has all prob been talked about before, and I can't even remember why i thought this would be worth talking about. although i do wonder why it's dan who's treated this way?

I absolutely agree, people treat him in an unacceptable way but get away with it because he is "a dude". Imagine if someone just came near Zoella and casually started grinding on her while she lookеd vaguely uncomfortable? There would be an outrage. I think Dan suffers a lot from people assuming that pretty = dumb and therefore Phil must be the brains behind the operation because he is ugly, therefore smart. This is however not helped by the "dan girls" who are subbed to him for his look and the accent, not because they find his content in any way interesting.
To me this is also a reason why he rarely bothers to form any sort of meaningful relationships with other youtubers, he comes with the preconceived notion that he is not smart and good only for his trusty legion of viewers and that's why he only ever collabs (on his channel) with people he is actually friends with (Tyler, Louise) or whose content he likes or just plain fancies COUGH (jack's gap, Connor Franta).

I agree with most of this and it annoys me how people treat Dan (especially the twerking Glozell(?) did ), except the bolded statement. How on earth is Phil ugly!? He's beautiful and hot. Maybe he's not as conventionally good-looking as Dan, but that doesn't mean he's ugly. Of course it's hard to be objective because everyone has their own perception of attractiveness and I'm kind of a Philgirl (*cough*) but that's why a statement á la "Phil is ugly" irks me. You could say that more people tend to be attracted to Dan and that shoves Phil in the background (lookwise) but I don't think that those people automatically perceive Phil as ugly. Like, have you looked at that guy?

[human]

i recently watched back the periscope that Evan took at the BONCA and what amused me is when Phil came up the stage and Evan immediately said (something like) "That's the brain". It made me wonder if the London youtube community regards as Beauty & Brain, and if so how it affects Dan (assuming he is aware).

Lol idk what it says about me but I didn't hear that in the stream at the time, but now you said it I immediately thought "so Dan is pinky? Lol". Haha. I didn't even think of beauty and the brain, just that cartoon with the two mice lol.

Also sentinel, Phil is ugly? Lol since when? Excuse you.

[CallMeAyana]

...I just realized how much other people sexualizes Dan. I mean, Onion is quite obvious with it, but I didn't realize how much other people did. Maybe it's because Dan is more vulnerable than Phil? Like... even if Phil shares more of his family than Dan, at the same time, he's more mysterious than Dan. Not to mention, Dan's internet history. Some YTers probably found Dan's nakedbooths, and the Sexy End Screen Dance doesn't help. Good thing he stopped doing those.
Also, Phil is never ugly, but he does have the brains. Actually, both of them does.

[sentinel]

Lmao no need to jump on me you guys. I didn't call Phil ugly, it's the perception of them. I should have worded it better, allow me to correct myself: "Phil must be the brains behind the operation because he is not the pretty one, therefore he must be the smart one". I don't consider him ugly at all, imo he has very striking, attractive features.

[CallMeAyana]

Lmao no need to jump on me you guys. I didn't call Phil ugly, it's the perception of them. I should have worded it better, allow me to correct myself: "Phil must be the brains behind the operation because he is not the pretty one, therefore he must be the smart one". I don't consider him ugly at all, imo he has very striking, attractive features.

...You mean, his attractiveness is over-shadowed by Dan? Well, most of the time, anyways. (NO.)
Also, I showed my TABINOF to both of my friends, and one of them said: "It would be better if it's just all about Dan." I'm like: "WHUT. EXCUSE ME, IT WOULDN'T BE TABINOF IF IT ALSO WASN'T FOR PHIL", but I just kept it to myself, obviously.

[Raspberrypi]

Lmao no need to jump on me you guys. I didn't call Phil ugly, it's the perception of them. I should have worded it better, allow me to correct myself: "Phil must be the brains behind the operation because he is not the pretty one, therefore he must be the smart one". I don't consider him ugly at all, imo he has very striking, attractive features.

...You mean, his attractiveness is over-shadowed by Dan? Well, most of the time, anyways. (NO.)
Also, I showed my TABINOF to both of my friends, and one of them said: "It would be better if it's just all about Dan." I'm like: "WHUT. EXCUSE ME, IT WOULDN'T BE TABINOF IF IT ALSO WASN'T FOR PHIL", but I just kept it to myself, obviously.

I have a couple of friends who say things like that as well and I feel like it's a combination of Dan being more conventionally attractive (don't hate on me, I think Phil is very attractive but it is in an unusual way) and their personalities. Phil has quite a strange personality which I find fascinating but it did take a while for it to grow on me and for a lot of people, they'd rather stick with just the more relatable personality of Dan. (I actually started off as a Dan girl and before getting into phan, skipped all the videos Phil was in cause I found him weird shame on 2012 me)

[hiddenwombat]

I've actually been wondering/thinking about this topic for a while, especially the part I bolded. I'm a bit too lazy atm to go find receipts (maybe I'll try tomorrow) but there seems to be a lot of instances where dan's discussed only in context of his looks, but in a different way than how most male youtubers are treated (at least from what I've noticed). please correct me if I'm wrong because I'm not an avid fan of any other youtubers, but it seems youtubers don't focus on the looks of attractive male youtubers (only person I can think of is casper lee for some reason). they will obviously comment, but in a more typical "oh haha he's cute, he works out, he gets all the #ladies" type way.
Dan gets sexualized in a different way where, if he were a woman, would be seen as disgusting/offensive/I can't think of the right word. The only specific examples I can cite with certainty is the whole onion debacle (ugh), shane dawson's comments, and the vidcon laughing at/with us panel. in all three examples dan is objectified in a way no one else is in the videos.
the vidcon panel is a strong example of this--the crowds cheer louder for dan than the others, and the host automatically acts like the audience are fans of dan's appearence and not dan as a creator.
while it's not the only time shane discusses dan in a sexual way, in the vid where shane watches youdatubers' first video, shane uses explicit sexual language to describe dan, and while he recycles a couple of the jokes to describe felix it's not treated the same way. in these situations people find dan's treatment fine/funny, while if someone like zoella was treated the exact same way it would be seen as extremely problematic.
Even in offhanded/quick comments dan's appearance is often what's mentioned. the only specific example I can cite off the top of my head is from the boncas vlog tomska made, where he shows how watch time was higher when dan and phil appeared. The only comment he made was how dan looked pretty i mean, he's not lying. this seems like it's not a big deal, but this is just one example of something that happens quite often.
I'm sorry, this has all prob been talked about before, and I can't even remember why i thought this would be worth talking about. although i do wonder why it's dan who's treated this way?

I absolutely agree, people treat him in an unacceptable way but get away with it because he is "a dude". Imagine if someone just came near Zoella and casually started grinding on her while she lookеd vaguely uncomfortable? There would be an outrage. I think Dan suffers a lot from people assuming that pretty = dumb and therefore Phil must be the brains behind the operation because he is ugly, therefore smart. This is however not helped by the "dan girls" who are subbed to him for his look and the accent, not because they find his content in any way interesting.
To me this is also a reason why he rarely bothers to form any sort of meaningful relationships with other youtubers, he comes with the preconceived notion that he is not smart and good only for his trusty legion of viewers and that's why he only ever collabs (on his channel) with people he is actually friends with (Tyler, Louise) or whose content he likes or just plain fancies COUGH (jack's gap, Connor Franta).

Phil is ugly? :wtf:

i'm starting a petition to introduce a third theme for this board. dan's duvet, phil's duvet and the ladybug selfie as the header, background and replacing everyones avatars
@admins wyd

Lmao no need to jump on me you guys. I didn't call Phil ugly, it's the perception of them. I should have worded it better, allow me to correct myself: "Phil must be the brains behind the operation because he is not the pretty one, therefore he must be the smart one". I don't consider him ugly at all, imo he has very striking, attractive features.

...You mean, his attractiveness is over-shadowed by Dan? Well, most of the time, anyways. (NO.)
Also, I showed my TABINOF to both of my friends, and one of them said: "It would be better if it's just all about Dan." I'm like: "WHUT. EXCUSE ME, IT WOULDN'T BE TABINOF IF IT ALSO WASN'T FOR PHIL", but I just kept it to myself, obviously.

adding onto this anecdote, I showed my housemate deppy and he said "that one (pointing at dan) looks like he would be the main guy, while that one (phil) looks like he'd be, like, the backup dancer."

also this discussion of dan's internet presence unfortunately being watered down to "the hot one" reminded me of 3:44 ("what about meee?") and their light banter about the teens only going back to watch them because of their looks and accents.
i hope it doesn't on them too heavy.

[lurker]

i'm starting a petition to introduce a third theme for this board. dan's duvet, phil's duvet and the ladybug selfie as the header, background and replacing everyones avatars
@admins wyd

phillypocalypse

[flurry]

Hiddenwombat I was also thinking of Phil's "what about me" moment as I read this thread! In fact most friends that I've linked their videos to immediately say that Dan is the cute/good-looking one and disregard Phil altogether. I agree that Dan is conventionally good-looking while Phil has more unique features that sort of remind me of the Cumberbatch (who has become so mainstream) or Matt Smith type of attraction which isn't the conventional standard of male beauty. In any case, I also started as a Phil fan and his videos grew on me in a way that was very different from Dan's. But yes, it is sad how people brush him aside sometimes as the sidekick to the more famous and attractive friend.

Somewhat tangentially, I've been watching their old Undertale videos and I realised that Phil was very angular in the first few? His features were a lot sharper and his face seemed very thin as a whole. Just my impressions though.

Lastly, can someone explain the Glozell thing to me - like who is she and why did she/others think that twerking on Dan on the panel was funny? I watched the clip and it just seemed disrespectful and also problematic.

[CallMeAyana]

I have to admit, I was a Dan-girl before I was a Phil Trash. Dan's that type of guy were you'll easily notice his face amongst the crowd, while Phil's that type of guy that isn't much, at first, but he will slowly grow on you the longer you appreciate him. Err... What?

Lmao no need to jump on me you guys. I didn't call Phil ugly, it's the perception of them. I should have worded it better, allow me to correct myself: "Phil must be the brains behind the operation because he is not the pretty one, therefore he must be the smart one". I don't consider him ugly at all, imo he has very striking, attractive features.

...You mean, his attractiveness is over-shadowed by Dan? Well, most of the time, anyways. (NO.)
Also, I showed my TABINOF to both of my friends, and one of them said: "It would be better if it's just all about Dan." I'm like: "WHUT. EXCUSE ME, IT WOULDN'T BE TABINOF IF IT ALSO WASN'T FOR PHIL", but I just kept it to myself, obviously.

I have a couple of friends who say things like that as well and I feel like it's a combination of Dan being more conventionally attractive (don't hate on me, I think Phil is very attractive but it is in an unusual way) and their personalities. Phil has quite a strange personality which I find fascinating but it did take a while for it to grow on me and for a lot of people, they'd rather stick with just the more relatable personality of Dan. (I actually started off as a Dan girl and before getting into phan, skipped all the videos Phil was in cause I found him weird shame on 2012 me)

Same I mean, just like what I previously said: Phil isn't much, but he grows on you. Both my friends aren't exactly Deppy fans, and if they are, they'll probably just watch Dan

adding onto this anecdote, I showed my housemate deppy and he said "that one (pointing at dan) looks like he would be the main guy, while that one (phil) looks like he'd be, like, the backup dancer."

also this discussion of dan's internet presence unfortunately being watered down to "the hot one" reminded me of 3:44 ("what about meee?") and their light banter about the teens only going back to watch them because of their looks and accents.
i hope it doesn't on them too heavy.

Well, most of the time, when Phil is beside Dan, he is completely over-shadowed because Dan is a blubbering mess. It's like in the case of Gintoki, Kagura, and Shinpachi. (Please let me be a Gintama trash for a moment). Those three are undeniably strong, but since Gintoki and Kagura are the ones who mostly exhibits their strength, they have the most exposure, while Shinpachi is left (most of the time) on the sidelines, and Shinpachi is that guy who has the role of giving the punchlines. Their case is more or less like Deppy's. Also, Gintoki and Kagura's appearance aren't the norm's- where Gintoki has white hair and Kagura has pinkish-scarlet, Shinpachi has... black (and wears glasses). (I'm sorry. I don't know how to explain it better.)

[bluntedclaws]

All this talk about Jimmy mentioning attraction to Dan has got me wondering whether any Youtuber (or anyone really who is not part of the phandom) has mentioned being attracted to Phil before? It's just that we've heard attraction mentions about Dan a lot but I can't recall a single one about Phil. (P.s. Dan doesn't count. ) Thanks to anyone who'll reply.

Charlieskies is/was the biggest Phil trash ever.


Then there's Evan of course.

[sentinel]

I think that Phil at first is not super model beautiful but his entire personality shines through and makes him that much more (this is not to say that Dan's personality isn't beautiful, it's just that he has features like a painting, a classically beautiful look). I felt the same way about Jack and Finn - Finn was always the more attractive one for me.

[lurker]

i'm beginning to become curious about the percentages of people finding dan more attractive, phil more attractive, both equally attractive, and being attracted to neither. maybe correlated with age, gender, and sexuality. has there ever been a poll like that? i like statistics too much.

[secretagentphan]

Omg do I love to talk about the double standard sexism that goes on with Dan! I don't think Phil is uglier at all, I think people objectify Dan more because his good looks are much more feminine. Nothing pisses me off more than shit like this, which is why it drives me up the wall when people claim to be feminists but only include females in feminism. Nahh m8. I remember in 2012 Dan got so discredited as a creator because of his looks which really wasn't fair because back then he was putting out quality content that was wittier than what most other vlogers were putting out. Some of the gross shit youtubers get away with saying about Dan is so appalling. I fucking hate everything that onion guy ever stands for (like getting his fans to bully and harass a girl with an eating disorder) so naturally the drama he had with Dan made me want to explode. Like boo hoo Dan didn't like you exploiting his fans and knows you have a bully channel, girl really? He's an adult?? Also he made it like he was an innocent fan getting shit on by Dan because he's more rich and famous... umm by fan do you mean someone who literally only objectified Dan then called Phil ugly? Okay. I just don't see how people find this acceptable. I actually find it embarrassing that so many phandom members continue to support him, but I shouldn't blame them because they're probably young and easily manipulated. Sorry this is so long but seeing Dan get so creepily objectified and not taken seriously because he looks very feminine goes right up my spine and brings out my inner (/outer tbh) feminist.

[RiriPandaHeart2]

Thanks bluntedclaws!

[Diyes_Celine]

Phil really not the conventional beauty. Dan is the catalogue model. While, Phil is the high fashion model. (I watch too much ANTM.) Dan is also easy to sexualize coz he tends to react on those things. Lastly, I really think people from their community respects Phil coz he is an og youtuber.

Well I ship Phimmy so I'll say that Jimmy is attracted to Dan but will always marry Phil.

[Raspberrypi]

i'm beginning to become curious about the percentages of people finding dan more attractive, phil more attractive, both equally attractive, and being attracted to neither. maybe correlated with age, gender, and sexuality. has there ever been a poll like that? i like statistics too much.

I don't recall there ever being one but I haven't lurked on all the threads so I can't be sure. I'd definitely be interested if someone made one (I find statistics way too interesting as well )

[secretagentphan]

Phil really not the conventional beauty. Dan is the catalogue model. While, Phil is the high fashion model. (I watch too much ANTM.) Dan is also easy to sexualize coz he tends to react on those things. Lastly, I really think people from their community respects Phil coz he is an og youtuber.

Well I ship Phimmy so I'll say that Jimmy is attracted to Dan but will always marry Phil.

LOL I appreciated the ANTM reference. I don't really think Dan gets sexualized because he reacts to it though? If anything I don't think he reacts as much as he should. I really don't think it's his fault but I already said what I thought so I will spare you all and not repeat myself I do agree that Phil isn't as conventionally attractive but that doesn't make him less attractive. One of my favorite discussions on guru gossip was when we compared Dan and Phil's celebrity crushes and it was so clear Phil usually liked more conventionally attractive people (like his girl Sarah Michelle), while Dan seemed to like quirkier unique people (even though Evan Peters is a popular crush, he is quite elfy looking and a little odd (I say this with love i want to marry that man)) because I'm and that means they're in love lol.

[sweetmm]

i'm beginning to become curious about the percentages of people finding dan more attractive, phil more attractive, both equally attractive, and being attracted to neither. maybe correlated with age, gender, and sexuality. has there ever been a poll like that? i like statistics too much.

Don't you think judging/comparing physical "attractiveness" is a bit shallow? I guess its just me

[MoonPride]

I would never say Phil is ugly in comparison to Dan, there is something about Phil that makes him so much more attractive than Dan ever could be. My Daughter loved Phil from the get go and took forever to warm to Dan, she says that even though Dan is cute, Phil is handsome and beautiful.

I have to say that even though I am a Dan girl, I'd choose a night staring into Phil's eyes over a night in bed with Dan

[secretagentphan]

(Sorry I'm constantly posting, I'm in a study and bored af)
I think it is interesting that people tend to almost feel bad that Phil's looks aren't as appreciated. That has to suck for Phil, but hopefully he doesn't care about shallow stuff like that too much at 30. In a way I think Phil has it better. His looks are appreciated but no one focuses on them and picks them apart as much as they do with Dan. So many comments about him are so vapid. Also there must be a lot of pressure if that many people are looking at you in such a way. Like every time that poor boys looks change (which is way more than the average person tbh) everyone notices and has something to say about it, that much suck. I realize I seem so #DanHowellDefenseSquad right now but it's not even about Dan really, just what it all represents I guess? I didn't get much sleep last night sorry hahaha

[human]

Omg do I love to talk about the double standard sexism that goes on with Dan! I don't think Phil is uglier at all, I think people objectify Dan more because his good looks are much more feminine. Nothing pisses me off more than shit like this, which is why it drives me up the wall when people claim to be feminists but only include females in feminism. Nahh m8. I remember in 2012 Dan got so discredited as a creator because of his looks which really wasn't fair because back then he was putting out quality content that was wittier than what most other vlogers were putting out.

Thank you. I was trying to work out why I find talk of people being "conventionally attractive" so offensive and I realised it's because of this. That people find Dan "prettier" because his features could be described as more feminine than Phil's; by which I mean softer, more vulnerable and thus apparently more deserving of being sexualised and dehumanised. It's quite startling that we recognise, accept and thus allow this in society as if it's perfectly normal when it shouldn't be tbh.

[momoroki]

i'm living for this discussion omg
Yep, gotta admit back in 2011/2012 when i discovered them I was a complete Dangirl. But then as I sunk deeper and deeper into the phandom I became trashier and trashier for Phil - which seems to follow the trend of first impressions = dan (generally, there are people who always liked Phil first) vs watching longer = phil (I've yet to see someone who's been in the phandom for a long time and not loved Phil as much, if not more than Dan)

Regarding Dan's treatment within the YouTube community (and outside of it I guess), I have no opinions to offer that haven't already been stated by someone else. But just gotta raise the question - do you think the "Dan is a bottom" jokes in the phandom are a part of this? Are they just cute inside jokes or are they actually kinda offensive?
Do Phan rumours/speculation about his sexuality come into play when it comes to Dan's sexualisation as a feminine looking male or is it just that he looks pretty and people want to comment on that?

Personally I think it's a mix of both, however I'd love to see other people's opinions on this

[lurker]

i'm beginning to become curious about the percentages of people finding dan more attractive, phil more attractive, both equally attractive, and being attracted to neither. maybe correlated with age, gender, and sexuality. has there ever been a poll like that? i like statistics too much.

Don't you think judging/comparing physical "attractiveness" is a bit shallow? I guess its just me

well i didn't mean to rate their attractiveness, i mostly just found it interesting how many people seem to find either of them subjectively more attractive, and that many people seemed to agree that dan was more "conventionally attractive" (which...idk). i don't think it's a bad thing in general to say that you might personally find someone more attractive than the other one, as long as everyone is civil about it and no one gets insulting. however i want to say that in context with the topic of dan being objectified my post might have seen out of place at this point which was really not my intention, i typed it before the discussion really kicked off, so i'm sorry if it seemed like that.