IDB

alch wrote: Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:08 am Conversely, this is making me a little more critical of Phil. I truly believe he has good morals but I'd like to see him actually get involved and do something. I so rarely see Phil getting as much criticism for not speaking out, most likely because he so rarely does speak out. I'd just like him to drop a few more liveshow comments at least. (though that's not happening ever again apparently)

I’ve seen this come up in several different forums and I’m not directing this at anyone but I don’t think it’s fair to project our feelings about Phil’s involvement (or lack there-of) onto Phil. We know he does things for make a wish and he’s done videos for stand up to cancer, donated his spon money for project red, etc. but publicly speaking about an issue is not something everyone is comfortable with.
I personally have many “issues” that have important causes attached to them but I’m not in any way comfortable with broadcasting them to the world.
For all we know, Phil could have anxiety and not feel comfortable speaking out. He could also be callous and not really care, although I strongly doubt that. Or he could hate confrontation or dealing with heavy issues and not want to be in the forefront. Whatever the reasons, he’s not obligated to become an ambassador or a spokesperson for anything.

The only thing I’m gonna say is I don’t think Deppy are like.. inching themselves away from their audience. The only thing I’m not looking forward to is the tour drought, because I’m not going to interactive introverts because I don’t have the money.

I’m glad Dan spoke out at the event though. Always enjoyable to see him in a more professional manner, for lack of better words.

Amiaw wrote: Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:07 amI don’t think it’s fair to project our feelings about Phil’s involvement (or lack there-of) onto Phil.

You mean like people have already been doing to Dan for years? lol. I adore Phil, have no idea why people have a problem because I don't see any problem at all, but I also adore Dan and have never seen any problem there either. I think the phandom just need to take a chill pill in general.



Also just wanted to quote this:

KatjaZoe wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:04 pm Dan doing charity stuff today is so heartwarming A nice change in topic -- I was not a fan of all the negativity going on, it really seems like half of you guys don't even like deppy anymore. It makes me sad.

Because this is why I backed off from the phandom a lot; people are weird in it. I don't like it 95% of the time. I'm still a huge fan and admirer of the boys, I'm just as big as I've always been and don't really see why people have so much stuff to complain about. If I had enough time to be in a fandom for something I whinged about so much and didn't enjoy, then I'd have a heck of a lot more free time than I do now! I only make time for stuff I really love, which is why I'm here (sometimes). But now I tend to just watch and enjoy in private with my little circle now, which is sad, as I miss having a public twitter and being active on here. But times are weird, man. Weird.

human wrote: Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:58 am I'm still a huge fan and admirer of the boys, I'm just as big as I've always been and don't really see why people have so much stuff to complain about. If I had enough time to be in a fandom for something I whinged about so much and didn't enjoy, then I'd have a heck of a lot more free time than I do now! I only make time for stuff I really love, which is why I'm here (sometimes). But now I tend to just watch and enjoy in private with my little circle now, which is sad, as I miss having a public twitter and being active on here. But times are weird, man. Weird.

So pls bear with me here, I'm not intending to come off... confrontational? Or anything. But I actually think people's complaints show how much they do enjoy their content? Like. People (for the most part; I do agree that certain subsets of the Phandom are actively unhappy with what's going on, whatever that may be) don't tend to complain about things they aren't passionate about, and I think sometimes poorly/oddly/exasperatedly worded constructive criticism can read as hostile or straight up pissed off.

Plus I tend to think of these forums as isolated enclaves; Dan/Phil could of course access them, anyone could, but I don't think people write things on here actually intending them to be read by either. I really think of this space and similar ones as "talk amongst ourselves" kinda spaces, and I think it's normal to air grievances among people who aren't prone to blowing smoke.

I know it's weird to suggest that complaining can actually come from a deeply invested (and happily so!) place, but I guess I just tend to read most comments as a "I really like what you do; here's what I think can be better," with the you part of that sentiment more an abstraction than a direct form of feedback.

Idk I think it's easy to conflate dissatisfaction with dislike, but I don't think that's necessarily the case.

Also apologies if I've misread your post and you meant the outright poke 'em with a stick facets of the community, but I've just been thinking about this particular Phandom dynamic and your post made me think, haha.

human wrote: Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:58 am Because this is why I backed off from the phandom a lot; people are weird in it.

no argument there lmao ;ghost;

I think Dan joked about not doing liveshows for a year in the hope of calming down the Ladydoor-type of comments he was getting in the chat.

I think my issue is that the volume of complaints and negativity seems completely out of proportion to what dan and Phil are producing. 1 gaming video a week plus 1 main channel video every 3-4 weeks each seems historically normal? So is it less livestreams that has everyone upset? I mean, their main job is YouTube, which means making videos. If they need to sacrifice something to make more room for other things (tour meetings, charity events, whatever else) in their schedule, I’m glad they picked livestreams and not videos. Especially if it means will get happy and enthusiastic livestreams like the last few ones have been, and not distracted/disengaged liveshows that result in everyone upset anyways.

Honestly, after seeing people’s snarky, bratty reactions to things like Dizzys fandom artists post and the phandom gives tweet, it makes me think that this whole wave of negativity is mostly fans ready to be dramatic and snarky about anything. Dan and Phil could always do better in terms of content and communication, but that’s super old news, so I think this is fans having a really overblown reaction to a normal thing dan and Phil did.

While I would love to see Phil promote a cause on his own, I’m definitely not side eyeing him for not doing so recently. So many factors probably go into that. It’s been brought up before that Phil used to be involved in Project for Awesome so I tracked down this unlisted video which I’ve seen gifs of before, but never the full thing. Make sure you get past the intro.
Who is this alternate version of Phil walking and talking and catching balls? If I didn’t know him, I’d think he was cool. Seriously though, I love his hair and shirt and the visual quality of this video.

I also came across a video I didn’t know existed:
I’m amused by the desk setup. I love the color coordination of the flower and his shirt.

Which reminded me of this one:
Which is just a long time favorite of mine for some reason. It’s the bike shop, and the casual pose and the hamsters.

I love seeing Phil giving encouragement to teens, but I think he might be past the point of relatability for anyone other than their YT audience who already know and admire him. 2018 Dan speaking at a school fits, but I can’t picture Phil doing that currently. And Make A Wish is a thing they Together, because they are requested together and the suggestion that they or anyone bothers him to do more? No. Maybe he’ll find something to champion on his own, but he might feel more comfortable doing things jointly and that’s okay.

Amiaw wrote: Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:07 am I’ve seen this come up in several different forums and I’m not directing this at anyone but I don’t think it’s fair to project our feelings about Phil’s involvement (or lack there-of) onto Phil. We know he does things for make a wish and he’s done videos for stand up to cancer, donated his spon money for project red, etc. but publicly speaking about an issue is not something everyone is comfortable with.
I personally have many “issues” that have important causes attached to them but I’m not in any way comfortable with broadcasting them to the world.
For all we know, Phil could have anxiety and not feel comfortable speaking out. He could also be callous and not really care, although I strongly doubt that. Or he could hate confrontation or dealing with heavy issues and not want to be in the forefront. Whatever the reasons, he’s not obligated to become an ambassador or a spokesperson for anything.

Really agree with this post @Amiaw. Phil's probably just out there living his life like the rest of us, doing stuff for charitable causes when it suits him and not making a big deal out of it. He doesn't actually have any more social responsibility than the rest of us just because he has a large platform. It is wonderful when people want to use their platform to promote a cause, but it's worth remembering that not everyone is comfortable being a 'role model' in that way, and Phil (and all YTers) didn't sign up for public scrutiny of his actions when he started making vids in his bedroom 12 years ago.

Personally I think it would be a shame if Phil ended up doing something publically charitable his heart wasn't in just because he felt he had to, or it would make him look good, rather than doing stuff behind the scenes (as I'm sure he does now) because he wants to.

blackdenim wrote: Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:39 pm

Amiaw wrote: Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:07 am I’ve seen this come up in several different forums and I’m not directing this at anyone but I don’t think it’s fair to project our feelings about Phil’s involvement (or lack there-of) onto Phil. We know he does things for make a wish and he’s done videos for stand up to cancer, donated his spon money for project red, etc. but publicly speaking about an issue is not something everyone is comfortable with.
I personally have many “issues” that have important causes attached to them but I’m not in any way comfortable with broadcasting them to the world.
For all we know, Phil could have anxiety and not feel comfortable speaking out. He could also be callous and not really care, although I strongly doubt that. Or he could hate confrontation or dealing with heavy issues and not want to be in the forefront. Whatever the reasons, he’s not obligated to become an ambassador or a spokesperson for anything.

Really agree with this post @Amiaw. Phil's probably just out there living his life like the rest of us, doing stuff for charitable causes when it suits him and not making a big deal out of it. He doesn't actually have any more social responsibility than the rest of us just because he has a large platform. It is wonderful when people want to use their platform to promote a cause, but it's worth remembering that not everyone is comfortable being a 'role model' in that way, and Phil (and all YTers) didn't sign up for public scrutiny of his actions when he started making vids in his bedroom 12 years ago.

Personally I think it would be a shame if Phil ended up doing something publically charitable his heart wasn't in just because he felt he had to, or it would make him look good, rather than doing stuff behind the scenes (as I'm sure he does now) because he wants to.

I would also add that since so much of what Dan and Phil do is tied together he may feel like this type of thing should just be Dan's. Like it's been said Phil is involved with charity but it's possible he feels like Dan should have this for himself and I think that's really okay. (I would make a new paragraph for this but something is weird it keeps trying to tag someone in my post and if I hit enter it does it automatically and messes up what I've written. Anyone know why this happening and how I can make it stop? It's super annoying lol. I already tried refreshing the page.)

I don’t fault Phil for not becoming an ambassador for a charity. I think ambassadors to charities usually have a deeply personal connection to the charity which they share in public speeches. Plus associating yourself with a charity makes a statement about your opinions / values. We know Phil doesn’t like to share deeply personal feelings or his opinions about controversial topics. I wouldn’t want to do that either.

Also (possibly a dumb question): Has Phil ever made a public speech without Dan?
I know when they speak together Dan usually leads. Didn’t the radio offer him a solo job and he asked for Dan to be included? I don’t think it’s that far-fetched to speculate that he might not feel comfortable speaking by himself at a school or a protest or whatever.

I think that’s ok if so. I hope he does behind-the-scenes charitable stuff. That stuff is valuable too but we wouldn’t necessarily know about it.

neetbuzzer wrote: Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:26 am

human wrote: Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:58 am I'm still a huge fan and admirer of the boys, I'm just as big as I've always been and don't really see why people have so much stuff to complain about. If I had enough time to be in a fandom for something I whinged about so much and didn't enjoy, then I'd have a heck of a lot more free time than I do now! I only make time for stuff I really love, which is why I'm here (sometimes). But now I tend to just watch and enjoy in private with my little circle now, which is sad, as I miss having a public twitter and being active on here. But times are weird, man. Weird.

So pls bear with me here, I'm not intending to come off... confrontational? Or anything. But I actually think people's complaints show how much they do enjoy their content? Like. People (for the most part; I do agree that certain subsets of the Phandom are actively unhappy with what's going on, whatever that may be) don't tend to complain about things they aren't passionate about, and I think sometimes poorly/oddly/exasperatedly worded constructive criticism can read as hostile or straight up pissed off.

Oh goodness no I don’t read this as confrontational lol thank you for replying. I do think a lot of phans feel like this? But the reasoning makes zero sense to me at all. Why would I eat cake, say omg I love this cake so much it’s my favourite and then say BUT it’s dry, it’s too thick, there isn’t enough sugar and I don’t like the filling?

But maybe it’s just because I’m older and I grew up not having social media connecting me to Boyzone, Backstreet Boys and Nsync so I had to accept that they do what they do and if I like it, I’m a fan. If I don’t like it then I’m probably not a fan, shouldn’t assume my opinion matters and should just go listen to Spice Girls instead.

I actually find all the criticism very rude and cringeworthy. And I can see audiences feeling more and more entitled to be rude and demanding and creators are starting to get fed up. Sprinkleofglitter comes to mind, she had to preface her own newborn baby video begging people not to criticise her over her bottle feeding decision. I was shocked that was even necessary but I looked on twitter and sure enough, her “fans” are there telling her she’s damaging her newborn by not breastfeeding and how they wish she’d reconsider.

I feel like, how dare you assume you can speak to her like that. Go away. Not your business. And deppy are kinda the same for me. I feel like they face complaints about everything including their own personal fashion choices and what they tweet on their own twitter accounts. They aren’t your puppets, they’re people, and they have their own ideas about what they want to do in life and with their careers and they’re entitled to do that without defending it, explaining it or without retribution from their own phans.

It all just bothers me hugely, thus why I’ve backed a lot off of the internet. Well that and my job has got crazy busy and I just don’t have the time to do much more than watch and love their content. I’m still a huge phan really haha.

Again, this isn’t directed to anyone in particular. More just the liveshow audiences and twitter really.

I agree! I do know some things that have been said here or on Twitter can come across as harsh but I believe most of it comes from a place of love. I've been in many fandoms where people could be quite critical of the content given to them (while still being very fond of/attached to it), so to me this is nothing new. What is weird to me, is the idea that you can't be a fan of something/someone if you have anything bad to say about it/them. What I mainly see is people venting their frustration, I don’t think anyone is throwing a temper tantrum or saying that any of this makes them feel miserable. I symphatize with those who don't enjoy seeing this kind of negative discussion but people should be allowed to express themselves. The fact that multiple people seem to feel the same way does indicate there's a bit of an issue, even if you personally don't think there is one. Although of course that doesn't actually mean it's going to be fixed somehow or that D&P are aware of it/bothered to do anything about it. I've said this before but there's not necessarily less content video-wise. I think the problem is more like a mix of things that may bother or worry people or that are difficult to adjust to.

As for Phil being an ambassador, he doesn't really strike me as that kind of person, which is fine. I love the fact that Dan is speaking out against cyber-bullying and talking about mental health and whatnot but he's obviously doing that because he wants to. I understand liking the idea of Phil having some sort of solo project but he should do what suits him and what he feels comfortable doing.

human wrote: Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:41 pm Oh goodness no I don’t read this as confrontational lol thank you for replying. I do think a lot of phans feel like this? But the reasoning makes zero sense to me at all. Why would I eat cake, say omg I love this cake so much it’s my favourite and then say BUT it’s dry, it’s too thick, there isn’t enough sugar and I don’t like the filling?
[...]
Again, this isn’t directed to anyone in particular. More just the liveshow audiences and twitter really.

I’ll really try to make this the last I speak of this and I’m sorry for all the rudeness and cringeworthiness, but the analogy is really more like
‘Damn I love this cake I eat it twice a week and it’s great yum’ but then one week suddenly there’s no icing with no explanation, even when I ask politely ‘oh did you run out of icing?’ And I still really like the cake but the icing was my favourite part of it and now I’m just adjusting to icingless cake, and I still want to eat it but I’m also used to a specific kind of sugar rush on certain days that I need to come down from. And actually I never even asked the baker directly, I was just asking the other people in line wtf happened to the icing. But anyway, I still like cake.

I understand what you're saying @human. I also read a lot of criticisms on social media where it think fans have lost all sense of perspective. With Dan and Phil, the drama comes to mind where some people were expecting him to cut ties or 'talk firmly' to pewdiepie because pewdiepie said something they didn't like or find racist.
Cool, everyone is entitled to their opinion, and i'm entitled to find it a rather dumb opinion to judge a person is a racist for saying what he has said.
But regardless of how you come down on the issue, the way in which some people expected from (mostly Dan apparently) to politicize his own social life so it would confirm to their own political beliefs just looks extreme to me. It's a "get your pitchforks out and blast people on the internet" attitude that i think is very immature.
I notice the same kind of black-and-white approach to some of the other youtubers that are linked to Dan and Phil too. Louise is a good example. You might not like Louise for all kinds of reasons, but the way she's being criticized really is just an accepted kind of cyberbullying to me. If you're not perfect, you need be burned as a sinner. And by god some people do allow themselves quite some credit and little boundaries when they look for things to criticize their idol on.
I wonder if it's just the little twitter echo chamber because in actual life people don't act and talk the way they do on twitter when they disagree about something.
Anyway that's my two cents and i think it's an important issue because I see people doing it to each other within the 'fandom' too. I've seen people exit the fandom, delete their twitter, or taking breaks because they maybe have done something questionable (in the eyes of some) and then get the craziest antics hurled at them. Some people seem to have lost the ability to act in reasonable and mature way when someone says something they don't agree with.
Maybe these people don't care about having an actual conversation, maybe they they just like the drama and no doubt they think they are in their right when they're piling up on someone because of a perceived transgression, but it leaves me a nasty taste and i would say it's one of the major issues that destroys the sense of community that sharing a liking for someone or something could bring

I think there’s an idea that youtubers owe something to their fans because without the fans they would be nothing. This is evidenced by the fact that we can see from their old YouTube videos that they used to be normal people. Many traditional celebrities are born into fame or we don’t see them rise to fame- we only see them when they are already famous. We don’t take as much “responsibility” for their fame because we weren’t there. With youtubers we were. (I’m not saying this is how it should be- just my thoughts on why there’s a difference between YouTube fans and backstreet boy fans).

Social media definitely makes it easier to feel a “connection” to traditional celebrities too now. You can see it with fandoms around the Stranger Things cast who are younger and again fans kind of see them grow up on social media. I think the way social media has changed “being a fan” is a really interesting topic... I wonder what the research on it focuses on.

Also fancybum I like your addition to the cake analogy.
I’m personally not mad at D&P or anything (I’m not on twitter so I don’t know what’s going on over there) but I think it’s normal to feel kind of sad when something you really liked is changed. People lose their minds anytime a website changes its layout. And they probably didn’t even really love the layout before but adjusting to change can be stressful lol.

I'm trying to not engage in negativity as part of my mental health therapy, though it is hard.

One thing I would like to say about Phil, though, is that I dont think it's that's farfetched to think he's not comfortable enough to speak out about such deep events on his own. We're talking about the guy who couldn't tell his trainer that he wasn't feeling well and had Dan call the pizza place for him. I think he has some social anxiety on some level, even though I don't like to "diagnose" people, I just relate to lots of his behaviours.

One thing I think people are overlooking is how Phil always seemed the more involved one in business decisions and general administrative stuff, so I wouldn't be surprised is their "agreement" is that Dan might be the one more comfortable in handling the public and Phil might be the one with the focus on the backend stuff

Dan tweeted, then liked this response.
There's your chuckle for the day~

Stakhanov wrote: Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:12 pm I understand what you're saying @human. I also read a lot of criticisms on social media where it think fans have lost all sense of perspective. With Dan and Phil, the drama comes to mind where some people were expecting him to cut ties or 'talk firmly' to pewdiepie because pewdiepie said something they didn't like or find racist.
Cool, everyone is entitled to their opinion, and i'm entitled to find it a rather dumb opinion to judge a person is a racist for saying what he has said.
But regardless of how you come down on the issue, the way in which some people expected from (mostly Dan apparently) to politicize his own social life so it would confirm to their own political beliefs just looks extreme to me. It's a "get your pitchforks out and blast people on the internet" attitude that i think is very immature.

I was actually really vocal about the whole PDP thing and I still do think he was racist and wish D&P had cut ties with him but there's no point in going over that again now and I agree we're all entitled to our own opinions.

But despite that, I also agree with the second part of your post haha about people expecting Dan (and to a lesser extent Phil) to conform to their own political beliefs. However, I think it's worth remembering that Dan's audience mainly skews young and left-wing/socially conscious, and that Dan is also young and has expressed views himself in the past that are left-wing and socially conscious so I think it's natural that people would hold him to their own standards at least to start with. Coming after him when he doesn't conform to those standards is an entirely different thing, which I think is unacceptable. But I can see why people 'expect' these things from him in the first place and tbh I think Phil has done the smart thing by just not weighing in on any politically charged topics as it means he gets left alone.

@blackdenim HI Well, I'm also left wing and socially conscious (in my country for example I would never vote for someone like Bernie Sanders because he's to weak of a social democrat. He'd be right of center here). I have a very different view on the matter though i think all language should be judged in it's context and that this context and the intent behind it matters much more than the exact word being used, and also that in defining who is "allowed" to use a word, looking at the 'race' or ethnicity you belong to is a really poor and criterium.
Anyway love poltics, I majored in it and I like debating issues but yea this is not a place where I can or would like to go into detail about it. I love that you have thought out your own position though and that your are vocal about it.

What I think we both agree on is that the main problem is not that people differ (strongly) in opinion, but that it is the way people 'come' at someone on social media that is creating such a poor and uncivil debate. To me, the internet feels like it's been so much Americanized ... both in the tone being used and the positions that are being put forward. Social media are just the worst. It's just become a shouting and blocking match imo (by bots?), and i see that general attitude also reflected in how some people communicate to their idols or fellow fans when they want to voice their discontent.
I guess I just expect that arguments and general civil discourse will prevail over the often quite heated, dramatic and super subjective quasi-insults that I see thrown around on social media.

And then he liked this, again proving his self-awareness.

liola wrote: Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:23 pm I'm trying to not engage in negativity as part of my mental health therapy, though it is hard.

One thing I would like to say about Phil, though, is that I dont think it's that's farfetched to think he's not comfortable enough to speak out about such deep events on his own. We're talking about the guy who couldn't tell his trainer that he wasn't feeling well and had Dan call the pizza place for him. I think he has some social anxiety on some level, even though I don't like to "diagnose" people, I just relate to lots of his behaviours.

One thing I think people are overlooking is how Phil always seemed the more involved one in business decisions and general administrative stuff, so I wouldn't be surprised is their "agreement" is that Dan might be the one more comfortable in handling the public and Phil might be the one with the focus on the backend stuff

I really like this response. I too have been trying to cut down on being a part of all the negativity so I've just been coming on every now and then the past few days. I always thought, or maybe dan or phil said this in a liveshow a while back, that Phil really doesn't enjoy talking in large crowds. Sorry if someone already said this; I've only skimmed through a couple of posts. I think to an extent Dan is like a "safety blanket" for Phil, sorry I can't think of a better analogy. But the point is that Phil wanted Dan to come with him for the radio show, even though only he was offered the position, any time Phil has to speak in front of large crowds, vidicon, playlist, etc, Dan is always next to him. I just think he likes the presence of someone he really knows to be next to him.
Lately Phil has mentioned more that he does have the tendency to grow very anxious when having to deal with certain situations. Like in his December ls he said while he was waiting for his tree to be delivered he was actually shaking while answering the door. Also he even said that part of his nervousness was because Dan wasn't at home at the time. I don't think it's wrong for people to want someone they look up to to go out and use their voice but I do think it's wrong to demand it of this person when they may not be in the right place in their head to offer that.
But yes I also agree that Phil handles the more business side of "Dan and Phil" while Dan can go out and talk to the public.

alittledizzy wrote: Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:09 pm

Sometimes they're like parodies of themselves.

Can I also say that i love the fact that Dan keeps liking Kevin Abstract's tweets. As a big Brockhampton fan that makes my heart so happy.

Phil’s tweet reminds me of one of my favourite videos, Going Deep: Aliens. Now thinking of them both as stags, anyone want to draw their fursonas? First thing I can think of is Phil getting his antlers stuck trying to walk through a door. Centaur-type stags, I guess. I’ve been a bit under the weather, the tiredness is getting to me

I want to see fan art of that too flarequake. And now I’m imagining them dressing up as a different unique fursona at each II location. Way too complicated and expensive for wardrobe I know, but it’s an amusing thought.