Dan & Phil Part 83: Where in the World is Daniel Howell

[glitterintheair]

I'm still not convinced that's their kitchen window, though. Like, it doesn't seem the same place at all, to me?

But then again, I have no idea where the room you see in the pic that anna_begins posted might be either, so...

Anyway I'm gonna answer those questions about sexuality later!

[autumnhearth]

@glitterintheair on top of the grey thing in front of the left window

These discussion questions are pretty intense and I feel intimidated for some reason, but I love reading people’s answers.

[alittledizzy]

Welcome, @wynoxium! I love your whole post so I'm going to basically quote the whole thing and then just reply to a few parts.

hello everyone! longtime lurker here joining in on the conversation.

> What are your opinions on their denial of male attraction in the earlier years vs. the recent openness towards it?

tl;dr - just a bunch of incoherent thoughts because i'm an insomniac who has no idea how to convert rational thought into remotely comprehensible language. i apologize for this getting so long, i'll try to summarize - i guess i'm trying to say that at their age and time on youtube/the internet and the environment they were surrounded by, their reactions were natural. I believe anyone in their position would have been inclined to respond in the same way - and it is how many people i know have reacted to the idea of same-sex attraction. now as adults, (and best friends that have been together for almost 10 years and displayed their lives on the internet) that are not only more aware and educated, but are also more sure of their own identity - they are inevitably going to be more open and comfortable towards male attraction, regardless of their own sexualities.

after witnessing their progression over the years regarding this matter, i could draw parallels between their responses vs. the responses of myself and my other queer friends. a lot of them denied any mention of same-sex attraction whenever it came up - defending the fact that "they were straight" for years until just recently.

throughout my years in school, i've witnessed countless guys who exhibit the extremes of behavior like that. in fact, one of my good friends, who is now out of the closet, was extremely protective of his so called "heterosexuality," and on top of that, was quite homophobic. he grew up in a household with his single mother - an asian immigrant, and his grandparents who had extremely conservative values and religious beliefs. he feared the idea of even mentioning the topic in conversation, let alone coming out to them. he faced bullying and even death threats at school. to deal with the bullying, he turned into the bully instead. his hateful reaction wasn't justified, but was understandable because of the environment he was surrounded by. again, this is an extreme example of the reactions and environment that many young people face, but it does relate to the reactions many people have - especially those that are private or insecure.

even i impulsively denied my own sexuality early on - one of my first memories from grade 5 is talking to a friend about whether they support gay marriage, and i shook my head, said "ew." (how ironic - i had a pretty big crush on him) it was most likely out of fear - a fear that i would be made fun of, a subconscious fear that i might be outed.

I bring up these examples - not because they exactly reflect what dan and/or phil may have been through - but because at least drawing from my personal experiences, it seems normal for any person, regardless of their sexuality, to have had some kind of fear and denial when talking about the matter in general, and much worse - on the internet.

though it was especially prevalent just a few years ago - even today there is an obvious social stigma around two guys being close in a physical/emotional manner or sharing a bond (even a platonic one), because of the fear that they will be perceived differently. however, it is so much more "accepted" now to be more open to that kind of attraction, even platonically. more and more teens and young adults are becoming less afraid to test and experiment their attractions and sexualities in order to find their identities, and fewer and fewer people are acting negatively towards that idea.

both of them were young when they started youtube, and even though it was only 10 years ago, i would say people online were even more close-minded and ignorant than the people on the internet now. a substantial amount of the first comments on even pinof were questioning their sexuality and/or hateful and homophobic, so obviously this has been present for the entirety of their youtube careers - and with their growing popularity, not only did the "shippers" increase, but so did the negativity and hate and the interest in their personal lives.

at least when it comes to the times that dan has denied the fact that he is gay in the earlier years as shown in the video - nothing he did seemed intentionally harmful, obviously, but it did feel like he was overcompensating. i mean this in the sense that he was trying overly hard to deny it outright as straightforwardly as possible but also make sure that nothing he said was mean or homophobic. (ie. thank you, but NO, unfortunately not, sorry guys!) he was aware of the fact that he would be disappointing people and apologized - which is what i find to be odd. he has the assumption that every person who is curious about his sexuality is a teenager who needs confirmation of dan's sexuality in order to calculate their chances of being able to marry him

times have changed and progressed in society as a whole - but more importantly, dan and phil have both progressed in their lives and careers and relationships with each other. they are adults. i think that's more than enough reason for any realization that they had about being more open towards male attraction. furthermore, they have become more accustomed to being internet personalities and celebrities and the hate and interest in their personal lives that inevitably comes with the job. as a result, the fear and stigma has probably dissipated, and regardless of their sexualities, they can express that openness towards male attraction that they were afraid to show earlier.

This part:

though it was especially prevalent just a few years ago - even today there is an obvious social stigma around two guys being close in a physical/emotional manner or sharing a bond (even a platonic one), because of the fear that they will be perceived differently. however, it is so much more "accepted" now to be more open to that kind of attraction, even platonically. more and more teens and young adults are becoming less afraid to test and experiment their attractions and sexualities in order to find their identities, and fewer and fewer people are acting negatively towards that idea.

Feels so real to me. So much so that I'm gonna focus on that instead of the sexuality question re: their earlier years.

There are a lot of circles in which the negativity and stigma is still very, very strong but social media and the internet in general has led to a lot of the good kind of exposure. I'd even wager that Dan and Phil have over the past 2-3 years really done an impressive job of leveraging their own power and influence to try and further normalization of attraction and sexuality that can just be casually expressed and explored. Their Sims series is one of the most watched and loved of that genre (sims lets plays) and they took it from a Dil-with-wife-and-two-kids to a queer teen romance story. They regularly, especially throughout 2018, played queer themed games or references queerness in a way that never made male attraction the punchline in a way that felt mocking. It felt more self-referential and inclusive. Phil with a mouth full of marshmallows commenting on how he wouldn't mind being stuck up a tree (k-i-s-s-i-n-g) with an ab-tacular anime guy always sticks out to me. Yeah, Dan was teasing Phil, but it was just so gloriously not-straight in a warm, wonderful way. Them having grown from how they were circa 2011-2013 into that era of self-acceptance and content just makes me feel so proud.

> Do you believe Dan and Phil are guilty of queer-baiting? Explain why or why not.

tl;dr - i don't have a clear answer to this - but if i had to give a definitive answer, i would say no. i don't think d & p purposefully did anything to "queer-bait" their fans, and i don't think i can really make a fair, moral judgment about either of their sexualities/relationships. they have never done anything outright that i could consider "queer-baiting."

if you had asked me this question a few months ago, i would've have said yes, without a doubt. i joined the phandom pretty early on but hadn't really kept up during late 2017- early 2018, so when i started watching again, all of their innuendos/mentions of male attraction seemed kind of forced to me. it seemed plausible to me that they are trying to capitalize off of their hinted relationship - (this is when i fell deep into phan theories and such - trying to get myself to come to a conclusion about their sexualities and relationship) i witnessed a stark difference from the early years - where they just outright denied it to both of them making suggestive jokes every other second and openly talking about male attraction.

i questioned their intentions:
if they were straight, what are they gaining from hinting at the idea that they are queer? are people really more inclined to watch them/support them if they do this? would they stop watching if they really were straight?
if they really are queer, still, what are they gaining? were the things they said before just a cover up? a lie? if they so clearly denied it earlier, why suddenly show this openness to male attraction? why don't they address the fact outright?

i still don't know the answer to any of those questions, which is why i really don't know how to answer this question.

but i say no because:

i think that phan was shipped from the beginning, and subsequently, the idea that the both of them are queer has followed. i don't think anything they did early on was done to purposefully endorse the idea - but they were likely aware of it. a significant amount of their following/popularity has been built on the idea that the both of them are in a relationship - but to what extent were they responsible for perpetuating that idea?

i'm not sure how i feel about saying that they are guilty of queer-baiting -- firstly, they are real people - not characters - and go through so much more than we see on screen, which is why i find myself uncomfortable assuming anything about their sexualities/relationships past what they have told us and shown us. they aren't obligated to reveal anything about their sexualities or relationships. they haven't done one thing that i would even remotely consider "queer-bait."

"putting on an act" or "throwing in hints" for 10 years just to make a profit? yeah, doesn't seem plausible to me.

the phandom, at least parts of it, seems to pick apart every single thing d & p do, regardless of whether or not the both of them purposefully intend to include those "hints."

they both share an obviously real bond and friendship and whether or not they share more of a connection than that is their business until they choose to reveal anything regarding the matter to us.

and i don't see how queer-baiting would be healthy or beneficial to either of them. inevitably, and probably soon, the both of them will have to reveal things about their relationships and careers - and i think we are at that transition period in their lives as they get older and progress through adulthood -- i think that would help me make a better judgment about the whole situation.

Plucking this bit out from under your spoiler tag:

i'm not sure how i feel about saying that they are guilty of queer-baiting -- firstly, they are real people - not characters - and go through so much more than we see on screen, which is why i find myself uncomfortable assuming anything about their sexualities/relationships past what they have told us and shown us. they aren't obligated to reveal anything about their sexualities or relationships. they haven't done one thing that i would even remotely consider "queer-bait."

"putting on an act" or "throwing in hints" for 10 years just to make a profit? yeah, doesn't seem plausible to me.

I do want to first of all agree that real people can't queerbait in the same sense that fictional characters can. They can queer-code things, and they can be purposefully obscure or vague in a misleading way, but real people are real people and there is almost never one contributing factor to a person's actual life and behavior. (As opposed to fictional queerbaiting, in which something is being done solely to appeal to a queer audience at the direction of a writer with absolute control of the narrative and with no intention of follow through.)

I also think it serves no purpose in this current phase of their life to try and say that their sexualities are any kind of bait. Both of them have demonstrated a pretty thorough attraction to men and while we may not know what label they use, I think most of us agree on the one they don't: heterosexual. So queerbaiting, even if it were a thing real people could do, isn't something they do.

Real people are allowed to have days where they feel bolder than others, days where they're reacting to things we may either know or not know about and therefore pull back more, periods of their life where vulnerability and opening themselves up is harder or easier. Real people can and do take one step forward, two steps back. We are reacting to more than just our own drive to reach an end point, we're reacting based on our environment and people around us and how accepted we feel we'd be and our own mental health/energy level that day. Coming out isn't a one and done in a lot of ways. It's doing a big disservice to people who choose to be selective with who they put energy into having that coming out conversation with to say that referencing it without a cut and dried explanation is queerbaiting, and that's the sadness that always lingers with me when I see anyone saying they're queerbaiting.

But since what most people mean when they say queer baiting is teasing a relationship for career purposes: I do think their relationship and chemistry and the conversation around them is beneficial to their career, but like wynoxium said - 'queerbaiting' even in a definition adapted to their status as actual human beings together as a couple wouldn't be healthy or beneficial. I even think they have, and are, prioritizing that relationship between them over capitalizing on the relationship right now during this hiatus.

I'm still not convinced that's their kitchen window, though. Like, it doesn't seem the same place at all, to me?

But then again, I have no idea where the room you see in the pic that anna_begins posted might be either, so...

I'm also still not entirely convinced that's the kitchen. It looks like that grey thing has a white top, and we've not seen a single other window in their flat with that horizontal lined frost on it. They're either fully frosted or they have blinds/a shade. But it is the most plausible theory so far so I'll still tentatively accept it, it's not like I have any better ideas.

[glitterintheair]

Yeah, I'm gonna accept the kitchen theory too just to placate all the thoughts in my mind.


Alright, questions time.

What are your opinions on their denial of male attraction in the earlier years vs. the recent openness towards it?

The more they got popular, the less they felt safe to express their male attraction, which was not unexpected, imo - they weren't ready for their sexuality and their relationship to become such a big deal within' their own fandom. There was still a lot of prejudice towards gay people years ago, so much disinformation; Dan had some internalised homophobia that certainly didn't help the situation and then they basically got outed by a video leak and everything went downhill after that. I hate how the Phandom reacted to the leak, I still cringe whenever I think about some of the questions people asked them - especially Dan - after that video. There was a lot of fetishization, mocking, and all of that stuff. Therefore I can see why they wanted to focus on expressing female attraction, why there was so much talk about Dan loving Jennifer Lawrence and Phil being obsessed with Sarah Michelle Gellar. I gotta say, I feel weird everytime I rewatch one of their old videos and they express attraction towards a woman because I'm not used to that. It's like watching different people altogether, it's almost an uncomfortable feeling. Not that I don't want them to be attracted to women, it's just that it's something we haven't seen in ages, something I've never experienced since I joined the Phandom in 2016. Like, nowadays when they talk about women, it's never in That Way. And I know we tend to focus more on Dan when it comes to the topic of sexuality, but I think it's worth noting how much Phil has changed in that as well. Even with SMG, for example. For years he told us how much he loved her, how he would marry her etc. but he doesn't talk about her like that anymore. I still remember that liveshow they did in 2017 where Dan tried to make Phil say how he "quivered for Buffy", and Phil was like "no, I like the show". The same happened with Drew Barrymore, where he specified that he loved her "as a person".
I think over time their denial on male attraction got less and less present because, you know... people grow. Not only Dan and Phil, but even the people watching them and society in general. Don't get me wrong, we're far from being a perfect world, there's still so much ignorance and people who insult others just for being queer, but it's obvious that we're not in the same place we were in 2012/2013 and I think that it's something that encouraged dnp to drop some of the walls they had built.

Do you believe Dan and Phil are guilty of queer-baiting? Explain why or why not.

No. Since I do believe they're both queer, I don't see how they could be queer-baiting. Unless they say "we're straight" - in that case I'd change my mind and side-eye them really hard for some of the things they have done and said.

[knq]

Much love for IDB on its special day! This forum and all of you mean a lot to me.

What are your opinions on their denial of male attraction in the earlier years vs. the recent openness towards it?

It makes me sad for their young selves.

I don't notice much Phil denial in early liveshows/content, but he used to talk about having a wife someday like it was the inevitable end-goal of his life, rather than a person to spend your life with because you both want to. Considering how many gay and queer friends he had that might have been intended as ironic humor or something but I can't really tell. If he did ever think that way I'm happy he doesn't anymore.

The denial aspect applies more to Dan, and some things he said in those early years make me sad for him and also for the people watching and relating to him. These days he's kinder towards himself and others. I feel like there's still a lot there to unpack and I'll be honest and just say I don't want to unpack it right now.

Do you believe Dan and Phil are guilty of queer-baiting? Explain why or why not.

A video on Dan's channel used to have a thumbnail of two women about to kiss, and I believe a Fantastic Foursome one still has a thumbnail of PJ and Chris about to kiss. You could maybe call that queerbaiting and/or clickbaiting, I'm not really sure, but I don't believe much else Dan and Phil do could conceivably fall into a "baiting" category.

The video under the cut is Dan being salty af that viewers were so focused on his wearing Phil's clothes years ago. A Dan Never Forgets.

[glitterintheair]

Do I hope that the person receiving the polaroid will share it with us so we can finally see Dan's face again? Yes, yes I do.

[kay]

Do you believe Dan and Phil are guilty of queer-baiting? Explain why or why not.

The video under the cut is Dan being salty af that viewers were so focused on his wearing Phil's clothes years ago. A Dan Never Forgets.

i remember watching this as it happened live and getting that squeamish, uncomfortable, dread feeling in my stomach of mildly irritated / feeling like i was getting shamed somehow / wondering if i was being lowkey passive aggressively scolded

yup, feeling's still there

[Stakhanov]

@wynoxium Welcome to the forum and that's a solid contribution for a first post.

I got little to add, I think you put it very well. One thing I do view a bit differently is their early behavior. Focusing on Dan (because he's been much more vocal on this) I always found his statements a bit of a mixed bag. Especially since there's a a reply of him from the very early days stating he's bi ( from 2009? i think it was on formspring.. you can retrieve it on some of the old tumblr sites that are mentioned in the FAQ subforum. Be sure to check out the "drug deal" if you haven't
I took his denials of not being gay to still leave room for the possibility he considered himself bi. Granted, that's a distinction that a straight guy would rarely intend to make, but it seems to me that his has always viewed his sexual identity as complex and maybe somewhat fluid. In his diss track, he suggests it might not fit "societies comprehension".
I remember the 2007-2010 online era and you couldn't have as much as a fringe or just had to look slightly androgenic to get tons of random people calling you a [Bad censored word]. In that sense, times have definitely changed a bit and they clearly feel more free to express male attraction. But they have always supported LGBT rights and never been homophobic.

[Ablissa]

Loved reading your posts today everyone! We have a new set of questions coming tomorrow
I still want to chime in, so let's go!
(I forgot to say yesterday - happy birthday, beloved IDB! This place is my favorite corner of the phandom. You all keep me sane. Thanks for existing. )

both of them were young when they started youtube, and even though it was only 10 years ago, i would say people online were even more close-minded and ignorant than the people on the internet now. a substantial amount of the first comments on even pinof were questioning their sexuality and/or hateful and homophobic, so obviously this has been present for the entirety of their youtube careers - and with their growing popularity, not only did the "shippers" increase, but so did the negativity and hate and the interest in their personal lives.

and what a great post to join with!
You reminded me of those years on the internet when homophobic 'jokes' were the norm. I didn't watch too much youtube back in 2009 (well, I did, but not Dan and Phil), but I still witnessed comments like that literally everywhere. Most of my time was spent gaming, and holy f//k was that bad. Slurs were thrown left and right. I mostly played WoW, and I know they both did too, so they must have had a taste of it at least even prior to youtube.

(At this point I'm just going off on a tangent based on your response, sorry - gonna put it under a cut)

However, one thing that I feel like I want to mention is that there was a time when they were sort of out. Of course many people disregard formspring responses and stuff like that which is okay, but this is my opinion.
I'm sure the comments were hurtful and I'm sure they weren't as 'out' in real life as they were online, but yeah. For a time, I feel like it was pretty accepted in their fanbase that 1) they're not straight and 2) they're together. Can any old school fan confirm that I'm not wrong here? I myself joined in ~2012.

Assuming we all agree that there was a shift in their behavior, a lot of people believe it was caused by the leak of a certain video, which I'm sure contributed A LOT. It's after that that Dan got very defensive of his sexuality and his relationship with Phil. It's after the video leaked that he started lashing out at fans.
But as a person coming from a place of firmly believing they're a couple, I think it wasn't just the video. I think they also grew, both as people and as a couple, and started to value their privacy more and more as their fanbase increased. At the beginning of a relationship, you often just want to tell the world. In the end, they wanted to tell no one and I'm sure loads of things contributed to it.

But since what most people mean when they say queer baiting is teasing a relationship for career purposes: I do think their relationship and chemistry and the conversation around them is beneficial to their career, but like wynoxium said - 'queerbaiting' even in a definition adapted to their status as actual human beings together as a couple wouldn't be healthy or beneficial. I even think they have, and are, prioritizing that relationship between them over capitalizing on the relationship right now during this hiatus.

I think we can't deny that their relationship is beneficial to their career and I'm going to say something controversial (please don't kill me, lovely IDB people) - this is shown now more than ever, during the hiatus. I'm not saying all of us are only here for the whole 'phan' thing. But a lot of us are here for their chemistry, and it truly shows through how upset people are.

All that aside, I agree that they are probably prioritizing their real life connection over their shared connection to us, and that's fine. Relationships take loads of work without millions of people looking at you. I'm sure that being out of the limelight for a while is quite nice for them as two people in a long term relationship.

[plinthofmylife]

I normally don't love We The Unicorns coverage of Dan and Phil, but this is simply laugh out loud funny.

[autumnhearth]

A video on Dan's channel used to have a thumbnail of two women about to kiss, and I believe a Fantastic Foursome one still has a thumbnail of PJ and Chris about to kiss. You could maybe call that queerbaiting and/or clickbaiting, I'm not really sure, but I don't believe much else Dan and Phil do could conceivably fall into a "baiting" category.

The only other ones I can think of are the thumbnail and moment in one of the now deleted truth or dare videos with them playing “gay chicken” plus the sex tape jokes, but I don’t think either qualify as queer baiting or shipbaiting. The former is definitely click bait (and a twisted joke at the end) and the latter is just being cheeky. It’s odd that Dan said he and Phil used to joke around with the shipping stuff like everyone else, but had to stop. Personally I’ve never really seen a case of that, like at all, back then.

@Stakhanov In 2012, Dan claimed that his formspring answers were for attention. And he did more than just deny he was gay (though that was the most prominent statement) when someone in the YouNow chat said that their brother thought he was hot he said “well if I ever decide to bat for that camp give me his number”. He also said the way to get him to have sex with a guy was to rohypnol him. So nah, he was no longer ok with being seen as bisexual at the time. His statement of “find me the right guy” left more open however. But for all of that, he did mention quite a lot of male celebrity crushes, balanced of course with females (much more than today). Him being in awe of Frank Ocean coming out and calling him brave at that time always sticks with me. And of course this tweet years later:

[plinthofmylife]

For a time, I feel like it was pretty accepted in their fanbase that 1) they're not straight and 2) they're together. Can any old school fan confirm that I'm not wrong here? I myself joined in ~2012.

I wasn't in the "phandom" back then, but I was an active Phil fan and Dan fan and also generally really active on youtube.

and 1) homophobic comments were abound and awful. They still are, just a lot more filtering/blocking exists on youtube. I have a number of trans* and gay (like that's their niche/content) youtuber friends and they have so many filters installed because bad comment still happen consistently.

2) It was assumed that Dan and Phil were dating in the 2010's among dailybooth folx and a lot of their audience. It was pretty obvious. It was different than, say, Cherimon (Charlie McDonnell/Alex Day aka Nerimon), which was a roommate ship that I think most shippers knew wasn't real (ugh I hate to even admit I was an Alex Day fan back then.)

This was a different time. I know it wasn't that long ago, but we've come a long way in people's willingness/ability to be on screen with same sex relationships not just in sub-text.

Back then, I always saw phan as similar to Johnny Weir (the figure skater) who managed to have an entire 8-episode reality show focused on him where he did parade fashion shows with furs, talked about how the USFSA didn't like how feminine of a skater he was, got an award from HRC (the gay marriage group) for visibility, dressed in drag, and talked about attractive men without ever being "out."

Over the course of the show he lived on-camera with his "roommate and best friend" Paris who then suddenly moved out, and Johnny had to move into a smaller apartment and it featured a lot of Johnny being sad after Paris moved out and Johnny's mom being mad at Paris. But they never on-screen confirmed his sexuality, and he straight up (pun intended) said "who I sleep with isn't important to you unless you're in my bed." He's out now, by the way.

[knq]

I’m so pleased to see the Rize giveaway is going to be fulfilled! Honestly I feel like none of us actually wanted it but Dan and Phil talked it up so much whoever it was that won those cheap plastic II branded sunglasses should get their damn sunglasses.

On a related note... you think Phil remembers his channel membership offers members store discounts every month (or so) and a Q&A type video using member questions every few months? The video in particular I’m wondering if he intends on fulfilling as he doesn’t seem super interested in answering questions this year, especially as so many of those questions involve Dan.

[fancybum]

On a related note... you think Phil remembers his channel membership offers members store discounts every month (or so) and a Q&A type video using member questions every few months? The video in particular I’m wondering if he intends on fulfilling as he doesn’t seem super interested in answering questions this year, especially as so many of those questions involve Dan.

Ohhhhh it took this post for me to realize he killed liveshows to incentivize membership sign-ups. rip. That was prob discussed when he opened up memberships but I must have repressed it lol. Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free etc. Their old way of doing things has really just been thrown off a cliff, huh? It’s not coming back. It’s been months and I still haven’t adjusted and it still sucks. He really can’t just throw us a pity ISG? And like, idk, tell us to fuck off once and for all at the end? Sigh.

[starwatersong]

Well spotted:

[Ataraxia25]

I am not as good with words and ideas and all as you all so I let you do the talking (writing?) but i really wanted to say that your posts are all very good and I enjoy reading them A LOT.

I'm also late for this (sorry!) : IDB! this forum is really my favourite place, thanks to you all!

[flarequake]

Just dropping by to say I’m enjoying all the posts. I was tickled to see the phone case photo and the Rize giveaway actually happening. I’d love a pair of the sunglasses, I remember at the time being more there for those than anything (though the painting they were going to do of someone’s icon sounds hilarious). IDB and happy Spring (or Spronf as my fingers actually typed first).

[kavat]

I normally don't love We The Unicorns coverage of Dan and Phil, but this is simply laugh out loud funny.

Dan Howell Watch usually makes me roll my eyes real hard, but I appreciate the creativity in this one. Funny how his Dan voice sounds like Dan's Toriel voice.

I don't think I said before, but happy birthday IDB! I have so much fun here, I appreciate everyone running it and posting on here so much. Here's to another wonderful year of bants!

[Stakhanov]

@autumnhearth I'm aware of what Dan said about his past behavior. Well, he never restricted the attention-seeking to just his formspring answers (which were full of lies according to himself). The formspring answer where he said he was bi may or may not have been a case of him seeking attention. For context, It was in response to a question where somebody noticed he was following gay porn star accounts on his twitter. So maybe he felt caught and admitted the truth, or maybe he lied about being bi since that was easier than explaining why he was following gay pornstars .
Here's a tumblr reply he gave about being immature and attention seeking:

"yeah but if you notice by now that was nearly 2 years ago. back when i was much less popular and people didn't analyze everything I said and it wasn't srs bsnss. i was also very immature and attention seeking.

just friends.

He sure did use his physicality and some amount of *sex* if you will to gather attention. They both did. Draw Phil naked. Sexy end screen dance. Promising nude photo's for subscriber milestone on dailybooth and making plenty of very flirty pictures for reachting x followers...
Their (fluid and developing) sexual orientation may have been part of what made them interesting to viewers and I sure wouldn't exlude the possibility that they also used that (with clear intent or not) to help their bid to build and bond with an audience. I'd wager it's complex. As said, they are real people going through real issues and living real lives too. That's why I don't think it's an irreconcilable contradiction to both think PINOF 1 has a lot of genuine moments of friends playing around (tackle him Phil!) and using rather dramatic statements like 'this is the best time i've had in my life' while also ending the video on a much more instrumental and self-aware not like "it's supposed to be cheesy". Certainly the v-day prank and some of the public interactions on twitter could also fit the label of them being intentionally flirty because they know that's what the audience liked and expected. Many of those 'phan' statements also suggested openness to male atrraction -in as far as they referenced each other and not Erin as Dan has claimed they did.

I think they are a lot more open now about their sexual orientation, though I think it's also important to note that their bisexuality i assumed by a lot of people but that they themselves have never really claimed it (if you adopt a skeptical attitude to e.g. the formspring answer). It's very ambiguous.

[susan2]

On a related note... you think Phil remembers his channel membership offers members store discounts every month (or so) and a Q&A type video using member questions every few months? The video in particular I’m wondering if he intends on fulfilling as he doesn’t seem super interested in answering questions this year, especially as so many of those questions involve Dan.

I think Phil's already fulfilled the "Q&A style" video in "My Google Search History 2!" - where he used the dates that that were submitted by members.


So not questions exactly, but using content from subscribers/members nonetheless.

[autumnhearth]

Sigh just for clarification I don’t think he said he was bisexual for attention seeking (the naked booths sure). But that’s a good quote actually, I had forgotten the beginning, but it matches up with what a lot of people (myself included) believe: smaller audience = more flirty/less fear and srs bsnss = not being out professionally.

[Ablissa]

Thank you to everyone that answered yesterday's questions! I really love reading your posts, and also how respectful the conversation has been
Now it's time for the next part of IDB Watch Fest!

Theme: Post-baking universe vs The Dark Era
░░░ Today's Topic: Opinions about their relationship with each other

> Are they simply best friends or are they something more? Is it something that needs to be “labeled”?

> Demons vs Phanti: Amidst all the drama, do people’s opinions influence how Dan and Phil interact with the phandom? With themselves?

> What convinced you that they are or are not together?

(Sorry, I can't find a video of just this one clip)

WARNING NSFW - Dan's 'grandma' tumblr response

Previous Topics:
........Fandom culture throughout the years...
........People’s perception of Daniel Howell and Phil Lester
........Sexuality

[kavat]

> Are they simply best friends or are they something more? Is it something that needs to be “labeled”?

I think they are in a committed romantic relationship and have been since 2009.

> What convinced you that they are or are not together?

I subscribed to ap and dinof during spring of 2015 and was very much just a casual viewer. I watched the videos that perked my interest when they landed in my sub box and I didn't follow them on any other platform. Around christmas that year I stumbled upon a liveshow (I think it was the last joint of the year) and that was what made me fall down the rabbit hole and I joined the fandom properly. I found some old screenshots and descriptions of the vday video but I didn't feel like I knew enough to form my own opinion on weather it was real or not, so for quite a while I was pretty convinced that they were just friends. I shipped them, but I thought of them like Joe and Caspar, best friends who lived together and were pretty heavily featured in each others content.

Then Monster Pops dropped, and the Boncas happened, followed by the first Gamingmas and I just couldn't deny it anymore. The flirting and the many moments that showed just how close they were added up to something that was hard for me to describe as platonic. Add the old posts and tweets and it just made the most sense to me. So yeah, the Post Baking Universe really did push me over the edge there.

[alittledizzy]

I know we've moved on from the sexuality topic to new questions, but I did want to drop these in here - pasted from our Sexuality Thread on the FAQs section:

Sexuality formsprings (that don't involve each other):

(ok obviously I think that last one is about Phil but because it's vague I included it here)

Dan's convo about bisexuality on dailybooth with someone else:

[Ataraxia25]

Phil being a cutie