Dan & Phil Part 84: Still Alive

[lilabet]

I loved this video. It genuinely made me laugh.

If anyone’s missing out on Easter baking I’d recommend Tom Daley’s ones featuring his husband

[Stakhanov]

Aw, come on, he has to promote his merch somehow and a quick spon at the beginning of a video plus wearing it in the video is totally fine with me. I know he's rich but he won't stay that way if he doesn't promote his merch and his content from time to time. I actually like the way Phil does it to be honest. He could be making 10 minute long "Look at my new merch" videos like others do but he's not doing that. I can take a little spon at the start of a video and there's nothing "hyper commercial" about that imo. He plugs new merch when he releases it and why wouldn't he?

Also, honest question: If you find Phil's videos boring and not personal enough, why do you stick around? I thought it might be his personality but you said you think he's too distanced and there's no emotional connection. But he's been making this kind of content forever so it's not like this is a new development. This isn't shade, I'm just curious why you'd keep watching a Youtuber you find boring and too distanced. Phil will probably never be the deep, personal and thoughtful kind of creator and I actually enjoy that a lot.

(I also think he has gotten a lot more personal in the last few months. I loved his Weakest Link video and his talk with his younger self a lot because he talked a lot about how he used to be and how he changed over the last ten years. He's still distanced but good for him. He's not our friend, he's a content creator, and I actually like that he keeps that line intact and clear, instead of blurring it like other creators do.)

We have some time until the next content drops so I'm gonna flesh out my thoughts why I think he's hypercommercial -like a lot of youtubers.

A lot comes down to personal tolerance I Imagine. It just annoyed me when he started with the merch spon barely a couple of minutes into the video. For all the other scrutiny Dan and Phil get, I feel like the commercial aspect is rarely talked about and deserves more attention. It doesn't surprise me that they have become more commercial with the years as most societies in general are trending towards increasing economization, commodification and commercialization. That's even more true for youtube(rs). Plus a lot of the audience comes from the US and the UK which in general have an even more commercial mindset than i'm used to (commercial health care, tuition fees, the role of philanthropy,...).

Phil's not doing anything illegal but that doesn't mean it's in good taste. Frankly why should it be my concern to keep him rich? I don't consider that a noble goal. There's some things they've done like the paid meet&greets that i find hypercommercial. The idea that you have to pay to talk to a person for 30 seconds is quite dystopian to me. It's not like asking money is the only way they could have managed access.
Also there's a lot of unanswered questions about his future and that of the hiatus and the fact that there doesn't seem to be to much going right now made a new merch launch look rather out of place to me. Is one vid every 3 or so weeks going to be the new normal?
Sure I can understand how a merch launch serves his financial interest and that of IRL Digital but that's not why I'm watching his videos. When he wears his own merch and talks about it in the video he's clearly putting a commercial motive in his content and that hinders immersion and makes the video worse for it. If there was a no spon version, I'd watch it. I'd consider paying for his content instead, or supporting him through watching the ads which are already in the video and which already affords him an income that much larger than that of most of us.

On top of that he just opened a significant source of revenue with the subscription model. They both made a killing last year and are presumably quite wealthy. In this context, I think he ought to not look for new ways to make his fans spend money on him. As I view it, it's partly a question of personal ethics and partly a question of fairness. As a rich guy, how much more money do you want to extract out of your audience of sometimes very young fans? I would hope the answer isn't "as much as I can". In a broader sense, how wealthy should youtubers actually be? I don't think there's a good reason Phil (and Dan) earn and own more than all nurses in a hospital combined do or as a whole class of teachers would. This isn't a problem unique to Phil, but I see this huge inequality as a problem. The fact that Phil can choose to earn less yet still live extremely comfortably gives him in my opinion a social responsibility to self-limit the wealth he can accrue (until more fair policies are in place). That's not a view I just hold for Phil, but one I hold for all other youtubers, entertainers, football stars, bankers, etc.

Also, honest question: If you find Phil's videos boring and not personal enough, why do you stick around?

That's a fair question and there's no one big reason but many small ones. I don't find Phil's videos boring as a general rule, I usually find them lightly entertaining and somewhat interesting. Sometimes at the same time that i'm feeling somewhat bored with them . I do think that he's got a great personality, I just think he's not expressing much of it. Yea he has at times made some overtures, but I feel it's limited and that creates the distance. It's I suspect part indicative of his real personality but part also an act. Like most things related to personality, it's going to be a matter of what you prefer. Some like Phil's style better, other prefer Dan's. What others might find 'reliable', 'safe' and 'comforting' about his way of presenting himself, I just find frustrating and uninteresting. I also think Phil has a lot of positive qualities. I like his quirkiness, especially if it doesn't feel consciously enlarged through acting. I like his generally positive take. I like how laid back he can in some ways. Watching Phil is overall an enjoyable experience most of the time, and I also feel like I want to keep up with him as I would with an acquaintance or old friend I haven't seen since high school. You feel like you've invested into this relationship, somehow, even though he feels at times distant. As long as Dan isn't returning - and that's still my hope- he's also just the only one still making videos, even though his content has also been reduced significantly.

In these times of drought, maybe that's an interesting question for others on the forum too. Why are you still in this fandom and do you expect things to change? I see views and the fandom in the broadest sense shrinking, but I suspect the people who are still engaged enough to post/lurk on here are probably committed a lot more than the average viewer.

[snokoplasmic]

[autumnhearth]

Nice communication about the tech issues. Also appreciate the sitting outside with a coconut popsicle image. And peeing/bladder mention, oh Phil.

[flarequake]

Damn, that’s a cute post. So much love for this munchkin. I’m assuming he doesn’t need to be told to lay off the coke at the cinema? Popcorn might be too dry then, is it sacrilege to lay off that for him too? Interesting to hear about the technical difficulties, that sounds like an awkward one to fix.

[knq]

Almost having a video almost ready to go sounds like a lot more ‘almost’ than ‘ready,’ Phillippe.

It’s good to see a solo Phil video getting a generally positive reaction. I think the change of scenery helped a lot, but I also think he did a great job of making something that could have been pretty uninspired, going by the title, into something interesting and funny.

Someone else mentioned, when he asks how much he’d have to pay us to drink egg-vinegar it sounded so much like how he talks to Dan that my heart did a squeezey flippy floppy thing.

[liola]

Dan taking the pics of Phil's merch I had a feeling given how relaxed Phil was looking at the camera but god it takes so little

Edit: AND HE SPEAKS. DAN HAS A VOICE. A true Easter miracle, he has arisen

[alittledizzy]

[wiccamoody]

there is no other reaction worthy of this for me this is my new permanent state. they really kill me and i love it

[autumnhearth]

No idea why Dan would be wearing that jacket for the photo shoot, unless they went to some other cultural event that day, but I’m not complaining.

[Ataraxia25]

I'm actually shocked. I may have listened to Dan's voice on repeat for two minutes. I'm not ashamed, I miss him so much. But boy, sorry, I don't like your shoes Dan (I say it because these shoes also shocked me)

[jve]

Just like most people here, I felt really happy seeing and hearing dan.
However, I am about to post something critical here (may be negative for some). Please note that this is my opinion and I hope I don't make anyone feel horrible but I think that discussion on this needs to be had here.

Earlier I wanted to reply to the point made here about hyper commercialization but I thought it would just be me agreeing to it without adding anything of value and I think @Stakhanov had put it in better words than I could have so .
This instagram story, I feel like just proves that point. It isn't like they don't know that the fandom wants to see more of dan, obviously they do. So the fact that they posted a story, on their merch channel no less, just means that this is just another way of nudging those on the fence into wanting to buy the merch (high emotions and all that), and that just leaves me feeling kind of squicky about it.
Dan and Phil, we know, like being in control of their social media narrative, and they have tried their very best to ensure that any of their official social media accounts only post pictures they think they want to put out in the world. If dan didn't want to post a picture of himself, I highly doubt we would have seen his video in irl's story. Dan wanted to show himself, great! He could've done it on any of his official accounts (there is youtube story so I think he could've even used the danisnotinteresting channel if he didn't want many people seeing him). If this story needed to be posted, Phil could have easily done it, after all it is his merch.
Why use dan's "almost official" presence on the irl account? I understand that he needs space, and he can take all the time in the world for that. He informed his viewers of his need for a break and he can use that break in any way he thinks is reasonable. But then he cannot, I think, turn around and show a hint of himself on his merchandise store's official instagram story and think that is good enough as his contribution to remain "online" whilst still maintaining the facade of his hiatus. I felt somewhat similar back when he posted his selfie around the same time as phil announced the sale on the store (but that I chalked it up to coincidence).
Maybe I am being too negative about it. However, I think that there should be no excuse to use emotional manipulation for financial gain without there being some sort of balance (if that makes sense?). I know that is how youtube works, in some ways, but putting actual effort in that relationship would yield better financial results and would result in a more balanced emotional connectivity without making the audience feel like they are being taken advantage of (we know that the majority of their audience are teenagers and at that age humans are usually more ardent and somewhat impulsive in their judgements). They are also aware that the more invested members of the phandom will check the accounts of others involved (see cornelia, martyn, irl, sarah, lauren etc.) and obviously they use that to their advantage, Maybe I would've taken it much better if the same story was posted by sarah or lauren, idk. I am sure deppy are aware of that fact, so I think despite knowing that, the fact that they still chose to post this story on irl insta, just.

I know that this isn't the most fleshed out or perfectly worded argument. And I should add here that I do like them quite a bit and really enjoy most of the content they put out; they are still one of the few creators I do respect and genuinely love, but they are human beings. I'm just putting this here because I think it needs to be discussed here. I would be very happy if you would like to set my argument straight or tell me how I may be wrong here.

[Phantasy]

Not quite the Easter miracle I was hoping for, but those bts photoshoot pics will do nicely. (And as if we needed proof that Dan would trust anyone else to take simple merch pics of his Phil.)

[autumnhearth]

@jve I don’t really disagree and yet my emotional response to this is very different to the sale announcement directly after Dan’s ‘still alive’ pic. (I actually unsubscribed from the shop newsletter in anger. And then eventually placed an order because damnit my kid deserves bunny slippers and a classic D&P shirt). But the behind the scenes clips don’t really bother me. Is it strategic? Probably. Is it emotionally manipulative? Perhaps, though I don’t feel it personally. I’m not really tempted by this round of Phil merch and while knowing Dan took the photos did cause me to give them another look, I didn’t do it on the shop website and it certainly wouldn’t sway me, it just makes me soft about their relationship. I think it’s more likely just a nice nod to the people that do support them and yes I suppose that does mean financially, but it feels more like a little nod of thank you than any sort of sales pressure. But of course your feelings/reaction are valid and the way I respond and interpret the situation is definitely subjective.

[glitterintheair]

Oh those stories, what a nice thing to wake up to oh my god.

Also I am so not surprised that Dan took those photos because let's be real: can you imagine Phil confident enough to do the pose in the black tee pic in front of someone that is not Dan? Nah mate!

[knq]

Oh those stories, what a nice thing to wake up to oh my god.

Also I am so not surprised that Dan took those photos because let's be real: can you imagine Phil confident enough to do the pose in the black tee pic in front of someone that is not Dan? Nah mate!

Very true! This feels like an appropriate time to bring back "work that rock"

[Stakhanov]

Just like most people here, I felt really happy seeing and hearing dan.
However, I am about to post something critical here (may be negative for some). Please note that this is my opinion and I hope I don't make anyone feel horrible but I think that discussion on this needs to be had here.

Earlier I wanted to reply to the point made here about hyper commercialization but I thought it would just be me agreeing to it without adding anything of value and I think @Stakhanov had put it in better words than I could have so .
This instagram story, I feel like just proves that point. It isn't like they don't know that the fandom wants to see more of dan, obviously they do. So the fact that they posted a story, on their merch channel no less, just means that this is just another way of nudging those on the fence into wanting to buy the merch (high emotions and all that), and that just leaves me feeling kind of squicky about it.
Dan and Phil, we know, like being in control of their social media narrative, and they have tried their very best to ensure that any of their official social media accounts only post pictures they think they want to put out in the world. If dan didn't want to post a picture of himself, I highly doubt we would have seen his video in irl's story. Dan wanted to show himself, great! He could've done it on any of his official accounts (there is youtube story so I think he could've even used the danisnotinteresting channel if he didn't want many people seeing him). If this story needed to be posted, Phil could have easily done it, after all it is his merch.
Why use dan's "almost official" presence on the irl account? I understand that he needs space, and he can take all the time in the world for that. He informed his viewers of his need for a break and he can use that break in any way he thinks is reasonable. But then he cannot, I think, turn around and show a hint of himself on his merchandise store's official instagram story and think that is good enough as his contribution to remain "online" whilst still maintaining the facade of his hiatus. I felt somewhat similar back when he posted his selfie around the same time as phil announced the sale on the store (but that I chalked it up to coincidence).
Maybe I am being too negative about it. However, I think that there should be no excuse to use emotional manipulation for financial gain without there being some sort of balance (if that makes sense?). I know that is how youtube works, in some ways, but putting actual effort in that relationship would yield better financial results and would result in a more balanced emotional connectivity without making the audience feel like they are being taken advantage of (we know that the majority of their audience are teenagers and at that age humans are usually more ardent and somewhat impulsive in their judgements). They are also aware that the more invested members of the phandom will check the accounts of others involved (see cornelia, martyn, irl, sarah, lauren etc.) and obviously they use that to their advantage, Maybe I would've taken it much better if the same story was posted by sarah or lauren, idk. I am sure deppy are aware of that fact, so I think despite knowing that, the fact that they still chose to post this story on irl insta, just.

I know that this isn't the most fleshed out or perfectly worded argument. And I should add here that I do like them quite a bit and really enjoy most of the content they put out; they are still one of the few creators I do respect and genuinely love, but they are human beings. I'm just putting this here because I think it needs to be discussed here. I would be very happy if you would like to set my argument straight or tell me how I may be wrong here.

@jve Interesting take. I hadn't really considered the timing of these photo's much as I don't check up on the shop websites. But yes, I agree they are quite crafty in bringing attention to their products and there's probably a strategic dimension in showing Dan in those IRL stories. More so at least than I think it has something to do with Phil's confidence levels, who's done plenty of photo sessions and posing by now.

I wouldn't call it flat out emotional manipulation, because I don't think they really intend to use people's emotions as an instrument for their financial gain. They've never asked for fans who are so emotionally involved that the mere sighting of Dan would be a great way to bring attention to the shop. Who knows what their exact intentions were. Maybe they just wanted to show some of the behind the scenes of Phil's photo shoot and showing Dan was mostly an unintended side-effect. At the same time it's hard to imagine that whoever was filming Dan wouldn't realize that his presence in an IRL story would elicit response. I think there's a lot of grey area here and their actions could take on a different shade if we knew what their real thinking on the story was. Just because the generated effects are similar to intentional emotional manipulation, doesn't mean they are guilty of doing it.

I very much agree with your last paragraph. Dan and Phil are generally people I very much respect and seem to be lovely human beings. Which means they are also "only" human and that they won't always act in the most ethical way possible. It's really tricky imo to judge any single action by itself, but in general my view is that some forms of manipulation are unavoidable and to be expected by them. That's just the reality of being a youtuber and entertainer. That's what it means to have a fourth wall. With Dan and Phil, it's clear to me that at times they leverage the emotions and preferences of their audience to "give the people what they want". Some manipulation has always been part and parcel of what they do, and it's proven to be highly effective in building an engaged audience. Way to effective really

for people who are interested i think this sums up neatly some of the issues at play [YouTube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVav1ri65Ws&t=1s[/YouTube]

[liola]

It kind of makes me smile when I see the words manipulation next to a business discussion because.. Yes? Obviously? We live in a capitalist society where most of the markets have been saturated and the only way to sway customers on one brand or another is to put emotional worth on what you're selling.

But that isn't necessarily bad (let me defend my category, I get too many manipulation jokes since I started in marketing). Even if Dan being shown in the irl merch was a ploy to sway the undecided people to buy something, what a silly ploy! It wasn't even posted on Phil's instagram, It was on IRL's which even a lot of really intense fans don't follow, I saw a lot of my mutuals on twitter not realizing where the pics of Dan were coming from - no casual viewers at all.

Most of the people who would've seen that story probably would've bought the merch anyway.

If they had posted something like "missing Dan? He's waiting for all the corgi shirts to be sold out, buy more to see him soon!" Now THAT would have been manipulative and exploitative and all kinds of bad. But showing a behind the scene merch shoot..on their merch account.. of the person taking the merch pics.. Like, we wouldn't be seeing anything weird about it if it wasn't Dan :shrugs:

[Stakhanov]

Well i think it's odd that manipulation should suddenly be obvious or more accepted because we're used to being exposed to it. Part of why these marketing tactics work is exactly because people aren't well aware they are being emotionally manipulated. This would a fortiori be the case for Dan and Phil's (young) audience. Much like we rightly limit the opportunity of say tobacco companies to target young kids with ads, or look at the role of advertisement in worsening the opioid crisis in the US, I think we should also be concerned with how Dan and Phil use their emotional connection to advertise their own products for their financial gain.
It's an odd blind spot I notice in parts of the fandom, where consumerism gets frivolously celebrated while at the same time ridiculous criticisms and standards get applied to Dan and Phil (usually around homophobia, gaslighting or other labels applied by the strand of the 'left' consumed by identity politics). If I had kids watching Dan and Phil I wouldn't be concerned about swear words, their many sexual innuendos or the mature topics they sometimes talk about. I'd mainly be concerned that they would want to spend tons of money on all of their products because they think that's part of being in the fandom and that's what all of their friends want and do. Something that gets overlooked whenever they launch merch or some other paid product is that it also divides the audience into those fortunate enough to be able to pay for all these nice things and those who can't, and as a result don't get to be part of this experience of added "marketed emotional worth".
In a lot of ways, I think a subscription model or a patreon model is far more fair if it would replace these more subtle, but not necessarily less exclusionary ways they try to raise their income even more.

[liola]

You're talking about two different things. Using emotional manipulation to force someone to buy something is called extortion, and it's illegal. They're not forcing anyone, they're just providing merch that people voluntarily buy. A subscription model would still be based on emotional attachment to them, except it would be an exchange of money for the main good, aka their videos. I've already said why that wouldn't work for them, but you can feel free to disagree.

You also cannot absolutely compare tobacco advertisement with Dan and Phil sponning their merch, because they're not promoting something unhealthy that would cause actual harm to someone like tobacco does (and this comes from a smoker).

Influencers can be compared to brand ambassadors, celebrities who become the face of a brand. So a fair comparison would be, I don't know, Beyoncé promoting h&m! Would that be manipulative? Are ads for baby products manipulative? Advertising is regulated for this exact reasons, because some things can be said and done and others can't.

Also, saying why marketing works or not is such a vast discussion that cannot be done on this forum. If it was that easy, marketing wouldn't be constantly evolving

[Ablissa]

If I had kids watching Dan and Phil I wouldn't be concerned about swear words, their many sexual innuendos or the mature topics they sometimes talk about.

Is this really something you want to say right now?

Uh... sorry... I forgot myself for a second there. Thank you so much for explaining everything to us peasants. What would we do without you? You're the smartest person I've ever seen! And you're even exposing younger people to your intellect, helping shape the minds of a new generation. Wow.
Is there anything you don't know about? I mean, liola is a marketing professional, but you always make it seem like you know more than she does.

Re: marketing - I'm honestly kind of about whatever they do to market their merch. They're a business and a business needs to make money. If it was more extreme I might care, but as it is now I really don't.

[Stakhanov]

I'm not saying they are forcing anyone. It's more subtle than that. It's about the degree they choose to commercialize their products and the methods they employ to do it. I would never call it extortion (in a legal sense). But a form of manipulation? Yes, certainly, and that's one of the main aims of advertisement. If it did not try to manipulate people to buy things and wasn't effective at it, it would not be so prominent in our economies. And as you say yourself, it this saturated economy an effective tactic is often to add some kind of emotional value to the product, for example through marketing.
That's almost guaranteed to qualify as emotional manipulation.

Another question is how unethical it is to emotionally manipulate consumers into buying stuff. Of course the product Dan and Phil sell doesn't have the same effect as tobacco. That's not what i was trying to say. I was trying to say we ought to look at the marketing methods Dan and Phil employ, and the negative effects that can be generated by commercializing their products and to a degree their personalities/persona's/ brands.
I certainly wouldn't call it ethical on the whole to use an emotional connection people have to sell products to them.
And yes, I think celibrity X promoting brand X or commercials targeting baby products to parents are very often emotionally manipulative. We're just so used to it and don't tend to believe it impacts us. While there is tons of science from psychology, sociology and economics that it does.
(and that's why a phone company like apple is the largest company we have on earth with a cash war chest that's bigger than the GDP of many countries with millions of people combined. Or why I can't look into a brochure when buying a new kitchen without seeing people smiling and children eating broccoli in endless scenes of domestic bliss. Now you don't want to be a loser without a kitchen Island, do you!)

[Tottrie]

I just want to start with saying that I'm no advertising expert or anything, but this discussion has been interesting and has given me some questions.

What would be a good way for them to advertise their merch if they can't show us them? What I mean is, if they can't talk about it in their videos, or make stories on Instagram, then how are we supposed to learn about them? A quick tweet with no pictures?

And if Dan now is the one taking the pictures, why is it bad for them to show us that? Isn't people always talking about how they want to know more about what's going on behind the scenes. Well, now you have it.

Maybe I'm just confused about why people are upset about them talking about merch. To me this is just one aspect of their job. Just like Disney make movies and then sell clothes, toys and other stuff. Phil make videos and sell merch.

I have a Disney mug, that's merch. I have a D&P sweater, that's merch. In both instances I saw the thing because of advertising. But I didn't buy it just because, I bought it because I like Disney and I like Dan and Phil.

I see merch as a way to support things and people I like. But I'm not obligated to buy anything just because they adverse it.

And that's where I think the importance lies. We don't have to buy anything. We can just ignore that it's an ad and just enjoy the beautiful pictures of Phil and the fact that Dan took them. Why get irritated over this?

[liola]

So why are you complaining? This is the thing I don't understand. They have a product they need to sell, not just to become richer but also because they have employees whose salaries and job stability will depend on their sales. They use strategies to raise the sale quantity - discounts, dropping merch close to holidays which psychologically will make consumers more inclined to spend money, and who knows, maybe showing a 10 seconds clip of Dan on their shop instagram. You can call it manipulation if you automatically think selling something to an audience in inherently bad and negative - which I understand if you think so, but this is how consumerism works and personally working in this field I would be out of job if it wasn't y

What I'm saying is that they're doing something normal to do something even more normal, selling stuff. You can NOT like it, of course you can, there are tons of false advertisement and strategies twisting the truth that I don't like and would never suggest a client use them. But this instance what dnp are doing is not wrong, and framing it as such is just too simplified and unfair to them and to everyone else trying to just do their jobs. They're not using manipulative language to push the audience to do an action, they're showing something and leaving the choice to act on the audience - two very different things. That's what I'm saying.

[Templeofshame]

My (no-marketing-expertise) guess is that the main result of those IG stories isn't sales (although sure, if some people were on the fence, it made them think about merch more in a positive way), it's new followers for the IRL IG. Which is a way of opting into being advertised to, which then ideally leads to sales. I think the nature of putting anything on the merch IG is kind of less manipulative, because you know you're looking at a social media account that exists solely to market and sell products, and you have the ability to look/follow or not.