Dan & Phil Part 86: here, queer & full of existential fear

[rikonee]

And that’s it, folks. Phil, inventor of comedy, has saved all of us.
All jokes aside, I’m so happy for Phil. So, so, so happy that I found myself to be speechless. He’s such a great man and I always admire him. I’m also a more low-key, pragmatic type of person so I can relate to him a lot. I’m happy that he got the coming out he wanted.

The video is so Phil. So good. Dan and Phil’s coming out videos are so different but both are amazing and what we needed to see.

Also: I wouldn’t even be mad if Phil just came out with the 5-sec closet video. That one vid alone will make me subscribe to him forever.

And yeah. Happy pride, lads.

[Catallena]

I hear a lot of folks saying they weren't surprised that Phil was casually out to so many people but I really am! Primarily because we've gotten so few (and none overwhelmingly... Idk credible?) hints or slip ups from people around them? I know there was the Cat thing and possibly Louise saying some questionable things but in comparison to the number of people they interact with, idk man, I'd expect them being queer/together to be way more of an active rumour outside of their fan base than it seemed to be?

Truly I'm wondering if they just had everyone signing NDAs or if they're way less famous than we think of them or what. I have so many questions!

this is a very good point. if he was casually out as gay to everyone around him, how did the phandom not pick up on that? we're the best internet sleuths around. maybe we weren't looking very hard because we all thought he was bi? i think i heard one time that someone was saying phil was gay but i think many people shrugged it off like "he's bi" ???? that is kinda weird. i think phil likely told all his friends that he wasn't out in his career/internet persona but....telling local shopkeepers?? and we didn't hear? what else are we missing??

I said something about this in the, frankly essay, post I made a few up but I think a big part of it is a combination between them not being massively famous outside a particular swathe of the population and it genuinely being pretty difficult to publicly out someone. Phil is smart enough to ascertain if whoever he’s speaking to has any idea who he is so the odds are pretty good that these random folks wouldn’t think to mention it because why go around telling people about random conversations but if they DID or if they realized it later and said something to anyone....why would we believe them? If a shopkeeper is saying ‘oh yeah I’ve met that guy he told me he’s gay’ I think most of us wouldn’t take it seriously AT all. And industry people absolutely have said things alluding to it and the rumors but without something substantial (video or photographic evidence mostly) they’re just going to be seen as trying to cash in on rumors. And if they did have that substantial proof they’d have to know that doing anything with it publicly would be 1) a huge dick move and 2) probably blow up their career and no one who would benefit from the infamy of posting something like that is likely to have gotten close enough to have that evidence imo.

After Dan's video I definitely had a Nobody Knew Shit perspective (aside from Bryony and Wirrow), but I had to throw it out of the window after Phil's video. If Phil was coming out to people in his uni days then he most likely told his internet friends that as well. And then I especially mean the pre-Dan era ones, like John, Cat, PJ, Duncan etc. At first I just thought that they only would have had their suspicions from what they saw on Twitter and Dailybooth and then just rolled with it when D&P stopped being open and flirty in public. But now that I know that they likely Knew about Phil, it's different. They may not have not known specifics about how Dan identified, but if your out gay friend starts spending all his time with this one guy for years... that's kind of just an out relationship isn't it? Even if the other half has his struggles.

I'm not sure when it comes to the friends they met in the years after, like Louise or the rest of the BritTube/US community. But what Cricket says all sounds very plausible. I am still kinda curious about the community gossip around Dan and Phil's relationship, at least until like 2015 or something.

I almost feel like analyzing that one liveshow with Deppy + Jack, Ben, Tom, and Louise again. Or jump in front of a train, that sounds better.

[autumnhearth]

There is something so weird about him talking about this subject, yet something very natural. Honestly, they way he speaks puts me at ease.

(okay so he is a ginger?)

I’ve made more than one post on here in the past about the spectrum of the manifestation of the red hair gene and where Phil might fall on it, but I now firmly believe that it’s unfair to call Phil a ginger, a redhead or even auburn when it’s not the label he has used to describe himself. He has clearly said it was mousy brown and only got a bit ginger in the sunlight (or with bleach), but he prefers his hair dark and has for a decade and a half. Let’s respect how he chooses to identify and not dissect this any further or try to project ourselves onto him. He’s here and he’s raven haired!

[Phantasy]

[...]I almost feel like analyzing that one liveshow with Deppy + Jack, Ben, Tom, and Louise again. Or jump in front of a train, that sounds better.

After all these years, that cheeky wink from Dan really did mean the obvious!

[Cricket]

I hear a lot of folks saying they weren't surprised that Phil was casually out to so many people but I really am! Primarily because we've gotten so few (and none overwhelmingly... Idk credible?) hints or slip ups from people around them? I know there was the Cat thing and possibly Louise saying some questionable things but in comparison to the number of people they interact with, idk man, I'd expect them being queer/together to be way more of an active rumour outside of their fan base than it seemed to be?

Truly I'm wondering if they just had everyone signing NDAs or if they're way less famous than we think of them or what. I have so many questions!

this is a very good point. if he was casually out as gay to everyone around him, how did the phandom not pick up on that? we're the best internet sleuths around. maybe we weren't looking very hard because we all thought he was bi? i think i heard one time that someone was saying phil was gay but i think many people shrugged it off like "he's bi" ???? that is kinda weird. i think phil likely told all his friends that he wasn't out in his career/internet persona but....telling local shopkeepers?? and we didn't hear? what else are we missing??

I said something about this in the, frankly essay, post I made a few up but I think a big part of it is a combination between them not being massively famous outside a particular swathe of the population and it genuinely being pretty difficult to publicly out someone. Phil is smart enough to ascertain if whoever he’s speaking to has any idea who he is so the odds are pretty good that these random folks wouldn’t think to mention it because why go around telling people about random conversations but if they DID or if they realized it later and said something to anyone....why would we believe them? If a shopkeeper is saying ‘oh yeah I’ve met that guy he told me he’s gay’ I think most of us wouldn’t take it seriously AT all. And industry people absolutely have said things alluding to it and the rumors but without something substantial (video or photographic evidence mostly) they’re just going to be seen as trying to cash in on rumors. And if they did have that substantial proof they’d have to know that doing anything with it publicly would be 1) a huge dick move and 2) probably blow up their career and no one who would benefit from the infamy of posting something like that is likely to have gotten close enough to have that evidence imo.

After Dan's video I definitely had a Nobody Knew Shit perspective (aside from Bryony and Wirrow), but I had to throw it out of the window after Phil's video. If Phil was coming out to people in his uni days then he most likely told his internet friends that as well. And then I especially mean the pre-Dan era ones, like John, Cat, PJ, Duncan etc. At first I just thought that they only would have had their suspicions from what they saw on Twitter and Dailybooth and then just rolled with it when D&P stopped being open and flirty in public. But now that I know that they likely Knew about Phil, it's different. They may not have not known specifics about how Dan identified, but if your out gay friend starts spending all his time with this one guy for years... that's kind of just an out relationship isn't it? Even if the other half has his struggles.

I'm not sure when it comes to the friends they met in the years after, like Louise or the rest of the BritTube/US community. But what Cricket says all sounds very plausible. I am still kinda curious about the community gossip around Dan and Phil's relationship, at least until like 2015 or something.

I almost feel like analyzing that one liveshow with Deppy + Jack, Ben, Tom, and Louise again. Or jump in front of a train, that sounds better.

My assumption before was that the gossip in the YT community was basically ‘well this is what I’ve heard and/or observed but I can’t say anything for sure but yeah everyone thinks they’re together’ OR that it was ‘yeah they’re totally together but they aren’t out publicly’ and the plausible deniability of everyone knowing from hearsay and not being told by them directly kept them in that glass closet but my assumption now is that if it came up people were able to say ‘well Phil is gay and he’s out but not publicly so don’t shout about it but no one knows anything for sure about dan or about their relationship so draw your own conclusions I guess.’ If everyone in your circles knows some of the truth from other people, enough to know not to ask or make something out of it it allows you a certain amount of freedom around those people

[sapienveneficus]

I’m currently on vacation (sidenote: I drove by an ice cream place yesterday advertising their root beer floats. Sorry to dredge up an old discussion but seeing that sign made me think of this board) so I’m not caught up with the current thread. But I just had to pop in and say, “Phil’s latest video! Wow!” I’m sure their’s much to praise and analyze (I can’t wait to read everyone’s takes when I get home)but my immediate reaction was his overall affect. He seemed beyond cheerful; maybe giddy would be the right word. He’s always cheerful in his videos, but this was next level. Like a weight had been lifted from his shoulders. And it was so genuine. Gosh, I’m so happy for him!

Also, did anyone’s mind immediately jump to Dan’s 2009 trips to see Phil when Phil alluded to the fact that his parents worked out he was gay because he was having guys stay over?

[eevee]

I’ve made more than one post on here in the past about the spectrum of the manifestation of the red hair gene and where Phil might fall on it, but I now firmly believe that it’s unfair to call Phil a ginger, a redhead or even auburn when it’s not the label he has used to describe himself. He has clearly said it was mousy brown and only got a bit ginger in the sunlight (or with bleach), but he prefers his hair dark and has for a decade and a half. Let’s respect how he chooses to identify and not dissect this any further or try to project ourselves onto him. He’s here and he’s raven haired!

genuinely can't tell if this is serious or satire i hope he lets his natural color out soon, i'm interested. but i want him to be happy with his hair color so if he truly prefers black then he can keep going off!!!

After all these years, that cheeky wink from Dan really did mean the obvious!

history was made

Also, did anyone’s mind immediately jump to Dan’s 2009 trips to see Phil when Phil alluded to the fact that his parents worked out he was gay because he was having guys stay over?

oh yeah i def think that's what he was talking about!!!! i mean maybe he had a bunch of other guys sleep over but we do know for a fact that dan was sleeping over a lot

My assumption before was that the gossip in the YT community was basically ‘well this is what I’ve heard and/or observed but I can’t say anything for sure but yeah everyone thinks they’re together’ OR that it was ‘yeah they’re totally together but they aren’t out publicly’ and the plausible deniability of everyone knowing from hearsay and not being told by them directly kept them in that glass closet but my assumption now is that if it came up people were able to say ‘well Phil is gay and he’s out but not publicly so don’t shout about it but no one knows anything for sure about dan or about their relationship so draw your own conclusions I guess.’ If everyone in your circles knows some of the truth from other people, enough to know not to ask or make something out of it it allows you a certain amount of freedom around those people

I'm sure there was never-ending gossip among youtubers, i'm sure they all pretty much "knew" but had the youtuber-agreement of not telling the audience...i'm more concerned with random-ass people. if phil was that out then....idk, i'm just surprised we didn't find out. i realize that phil would only tell people that wouldn't out him.....but he's acting like he wasn't putting any effort into being in the closet. i guess looking back, he wasn't? him and dan were really only putting effort into making it look like they were not in a relationship with each other? i guess that doesn't have anything to do with phil's sexuality? but also, if phil was casually out like he says he is, and hasnt mentioned it in a video, that can't be an accident. so he was casually out to everyone except his entire fanbase?

maybe i'm just tired but i feel like that math lady meme and this whole thing just seems weird to me. back to my theory that dan and phil are holograms put here by an overly optimistic creator for the sole purpose of being perfect for each other

[alittledizzy]

I'm gonna hand in my singular 'hits differently reference' card just to post this while silently dying of laughter at how misinterpreted it has clearly always been.

[eevee]

I'm gonna hand in my singular 'hits differently reference' card just to post this while silently dying of laughter at how misinterpreted it has clearly always been.

i can't tell if i love how dan reacted that way or that him and phil had an entire ass conversation in a split second when phil said "the girl" more

[Cricket]

so he was casually out to everyone except his entire fanbase?

I totally understand the confusion but yeah I think he was casually out to everyone but his fanbase. I’m sure there were times where he wasn’t as casually open about it but ‘out to everyone but the fans/fan adjacent’ is a pretty typical public closet situation for public figures even ones with much wider fanbases and general public recognition than Phil. And he’s never really tried to hide it from the fanbase. Anyone paying attention knew he wasn’t straight he just wasn’t out which was intentional because the societal impulse to deny anyone is queer unless they say it explicitly is still very strong and that was protecting him and by extension his relationship and dan.

[poweroftriangles]

I legitimately screamed when I saw his insta story.

So very happy for him, it was such a charmingly matter-of-fact video. I love how different their approaches were to this, they must have taken time to figure it out. I forgive all their hiatus vagueness and silence.

Re: Phil being very out - I think he would have been at least a little cautious with telling people who were likely to be his viewers. I guess with friends there was mutual trust enough to not require an NDA!

Re: TERFs (by any other name, they are still TERFs) - they can fuck off honestly. I'm surprised this is even happening in the main thread.

[alittledizzy]

so he was casually out to everyone except his entire fanbase?

I totally understand the confusion but yeah I think he was casually out to everyone but his fanbase. I’m sure there were times where he wasn’t as casually open about it but ‘out to everyone but the fans/fan adjacent’ is a pretty typical public closet situation for public figures even ones with much wider fanbases and general public recognition than Phil. And he’s never really tried to hide it from the fanbase. Anyone paying attention knew he wasn’t straight he just wasn’t out which was intentional because the societal impulse to deny anyone is queer unless they say it explicitly is still very strong and that was protecting him and by extension his relationship and dan.

I am actually gonna disagree and say that particularly between 2011 and 2014 he very much did try to hide it from the fanbase. Phil's video covers his years right up until late 2009, but he stops talking about his life experiences at the point where Dan + youtube + sexuality would converge. Phil had many years of mentioning future wives, girlfriends, talking about girls, etc on camera. I think because the focus of his video was to comfort and encourage as well as inform us about this basic fact of him as a person, he wasn't about to touch the complex issues of public wide-scale outing while having a sexually confused partner who (in Dan's terms) 'shut down' when it came to the topic and public scrutiny over his relationship. But it is very clear based on past behavior that one of his reactions to that as to project an interest in women to us. So many youtubers who are notable today were also just fans of Dan and Phil six years ago, too; it's not a stretch to me that Phil might not consider the youtube community at large (outside of actual friends of his) as being in the category of his sexuality being relevant to them.

So I guess I'm saying I think he was perhaps exaggerating the extent to which he is casually out. I fully believe that his friends and family and people close enough to be trustworthy would have known, and that counts for a lot. Like - a lot. Having a safety net of friends and family you know accepts you often feels like the hard part is over with. But I don't think he was actually out there telling strangers and the mailman or that somehow he managed to corral everyone else in the world into just keeping it from us.

[autumnhearth]

I’ve made more than one post on here in the past about the spectrum of the manifestation of the red hair gene and where Phil might fall on it, but I now firmly believe that it’s unfair to call Phil a ginger, a redhead or even auburn when it’s not the label he has used to describe himself. He has clearly said it was mousy brown and only got a bit ginger in the sunlight (or with bleach), but he prefers his hair dark and has for a decade and a half. Let’s respect how he chooses to identify and not dissect this any further or try to project ourselves onto him. He’s here and he’s raven haired!

genuinely can't tell if this is serious or satire i hope he lets his natural color out soon, i'm interested. but i want him to be happy with his hair color so if he truly prefers black then he can keep going off!!!

Definitely satire, though I am going to take my own advice and let it go

[greenergrass]

I've been busy all day and I check idb at almost 2am and see like 5 new pages and was like 'what happened omg??!!'

What a nice surprise to come back to! I won't be able to actually watch until tomorrow (not at home and around too many people with no headphones lol) but from what I read on here it sounds like a great video and very phil. So happy for him and can't wait to watch and see it all for myself and really take it in

[blueapple_x]

Good lord I picked a bad day to be social! The first thing I saw was phil's IG story while I was eating at a noisy restaurant. I had to bust out my crap earphones right away--I had no shame. I really wasn't expecting this video so soon!

I'm so so proud of Phil!

I can't wait to see what the future holds for the guys in this post coming out universe

[noodlebum]

Need a like or comment or something from Dan and from some noteable people - feel like he's not going to get as much attention from his video as Dan did. Sure he probably doesn't want lots of attention and it was low key, and not a dramatic 45 min epic regarding labels etc too, but still... Hector commented which is nice

He is trending on Twitter

But come on Dan, stop with the instagram-following spree and give Phil's video some love!!

Don't worry, Dan liked the video almost immediately. That's how I saw that Phil uploaded

Whaaat why didn't it show when I looked? Loved his tweet - the future really is looking hopeful
And what someone said further up is so true, Phil did look so happy in this video!!

[onomatopoeia]

Don't think I can ever get tired of Phil saying the word "gay", even if he's already said it about 87 times in his 8 minute video
I'm SO happy and proud of him, and can we just talk about what a comedic genius he is??? Aside from the five second coming out video, I also found the part where he realized he likes boys on the beach, the dorky rhyming section, and the deadpan look on his face when he's talking about wanting to see the specific boob hilarious. Ugh king

[knq]

Don't think I can ever get tired of Phil saying the word "gay", even if he's already said it about 87 times in his 8 minute video
I'm SO happy and proud of him, and can we just talk about what a comedic genius he is??? Aside from the five second coming out video, I also found the part where he realized he likes boys on the beach, the dorky rhyming section, and the deadpan look on his face when he's talking about wanting to see the specific boob hilarious. Ugh king

Same. I now need one ‘I’m Gay’ for every minute of video. For Phil’s 10 minute and 4 second videos I will be needing 11 I’m gays. Always round up.

[basicallyimlesbian]

...is anybody else a little surprised that he's very resolutely gay? And that he's been sure since he was a teenager?

Oddly, no? I'd intuited that if he knew by the time he was 22 and met Dan, it's very unlikely that he wasn't out at university. I'm that age now and only have as much uni years as Dan (and ten years after Phil) but the freedom and acceptance was amazing.

Also, that the reason there was less confusion around Phil was there there was less confusion within Phil. Him having had the years at uni to be happily out and secure in his sexuality whereas Dan did not.. I wasn't around in 2012 but, from what I've seen, their responses make a little more sense.

Also, the camp came out in this video and it was very good to watch.

[basicallyimlesbian]

I hear a lot of folks saying they weren't surprised that Phil was casually out to so many people but I really am! Primarily because we've gotten so few (and none overwhelmingly... Idk credible?) hints or slip ups from people around them? I know there was the Cat thing and possibly Louise saying some questionable things but in comparison to the number of people they interact with, idk man, I'd expect them being queer/together to be way more of an active rumour outside of their fan base than it seemed to be?

Truly I'm wondering if they just had everyone signing NDAs or if they're way less famous than we think of them or what. I have so many questions!

this is a very good point. if he was casually out as gay to everyone around him, how did the phandom not pick up on that? we're the best internet sleuths around. maybe we weren't looking very hard because we all thought he was bi? i think i heard one time that someone was saying phil was gay but i think many people shrugged it off like "he's bi" ???? that is kinda weird. i think phil likely told all his friends that he wasn't out in his career/internet persona but....telling local shopkeepers?? and we didn't hear? what else are we missing??

tbh I'd got into Dan and Phil bc I was recommending Hannah Hart with someone in my LGBT soc who didn't really know or care about YouTube. He'd heard of charlieissocoollike but no one else, and ended up offhandedly saying, "I'm mutual friends with those Dan and Phil guys and apparently they're actually dating."

me:

I'm ashamed to say I went down the rabbit hole trying to find out if it was true but I was 18 and dumb, but I was enamoured after watching all their PINOFs in a row and have been a fan ever since.

And when I messaged another friend (also London based) about it, they'd heard the same thing from another mutual of a mutual friend. So it did travel, but no one would actually believe us if we said. Neither of us did want to spread it far and wide because... that's cruel, but even if we had it would've been laughed off the map.

[basicallyimlesbian]

4. I'm a lesbian and my "man crush" is Darren Criss as he's who I loved when I thought I was bi and had a boyfriend. So I get Phil saying SMG is his crush, but I'm sad he's had to use her as his prime crush example all these years.

1. What is it about lesbians and our crushes on Darren Criss?
2. Phil Lester and Darren Criss are the same age. Let that sink in.
3.

Fuck TERFs.

[socksparadox]

If they (or at least Phil) have been out to friends/peers the whole time, they've all honestly done a damn good job at not letting out too much information. Really the only big, definitive slip-up in terms of outing was The Video Incident, which was out of anybody's control. Other than that, aside from a few fishy things said in vlogs, I can't think of any significant slips from anyone (though the clip of Jack Howard saying something to Dan about making out with another youtuber in corner was pretty bad lol).

Regardless of what you want to call them, there is definitely a subset of people who think that trans people should be excluded from feminist narratives. They certainly (and unfortunately) exist and some of the shit I've heard them say is deplorable. I'm glad other members of the LGBT community (including Dan) are calling them out and saying that their anti-trans rhetoric is unacceptable.

[glitterintheair]

...is anybody else a little surprised that he's very resolutely gay? And that he's been sure since he was a teenager?

I wasn't surprised at all, tbh. Phil really gives off a "I know who I am, I know what I want and i'm confident about it" vibe (also I remember the first time I saw him my gaydar immediately went off). I've always been under the impression that the whole "pretending to be straight" stuff that happened in the past was only 'cause Dan was struggling with his identity and Phil wanted to protect him, not because Phil was struggling with his own or because he wasn't out to anyone.

I also wouldn't find it surprising if he's been out to his friends the whole time. And by friends I mean people he knew he could trust (Bry, Cat, Pj, Duncan..). I mean, if they're true friends they surely would not go around telling strangers "oh my friend is gay btw".

[kavat]

I keep thinking about that moment in a Chels & Jim liveshow where someone asks (paraphrasing) "What's the deal with Dan and Phil, they gay?" and Chels answers with "We all know the deal with Dan and Phil" while Jimmy just gets up and leaves the frame. I can't find it now, but I think it shows that it was probably pretty known within the (brittish) YT community, some people just had a bit more tact.

Can we also appreciate the continuation of the vase joke. That just set the tone for the whole video, what a legend.

[tipofmemory]

Phil's video is #4 on trending!!