ContraPoints (Natalie Wynn)

[lefthandedism]

I'm totally in love with ContraPoints. Dan who?

I find people who are smart and educated so hot.....

I think I watched one of Contra's videos when Dan mentioned her a year ago, but it didn't take. Someone showed me a recent video a few weeks ago and this time I was hooked. Since I'm a completionist, I watched all of her videos, backwards, and have watched quite a few several times over.

Did I mention loving people who are both smart and educated? I love the depth of Contra's knowledge, the thoroughness of her research (and the citations), and the competence of her arguments and Socratic dialogs. (I am not being facetious!)

I'm also impressed by her cultural knowledge--she seems able to bring so much context to her discussions, not just academic learning. Even though she's only 30, I feel as though she's very much my peer (and I'm definitely over 30). For instance, I'm still chuckling over Lady Foppington saying, "Clock me, Amadeus."

Contra's getting rising fame for her ability to reach out to people (such as incels) whom she disagrees with, meeting them where they are, and offering them ways to deconstruct and maybe even change their ways of thinking. (I sometimes wonder how many minds she's actually changing, but the number is definitely greater than zero, and that is a very good thing.)

I'm not part of that target audience, though, nor are the surprising number of people I know who love her; for instance one of my curmudgeonly middle-aged guy friends has been eagerly looking forward to the next video by "that trans chick".

Watching Contra's videos backwards has of course had the interesting effect of watching her transition in reverse. I had been kinda concerned that I wouldn't like her videos after a certain point, but of course the change was gradual, and while there are many differences between Contra now and Contra three years ago, she has the same fierce intellect, humor, and humanity.

I've regularly argued in the main threads that I think Dan has the intellectual capacity to make videos like these, and that what he's lacking is formal education. I like to think what Dan's videos could be like if he acquired more academic rigor. I've always enjoyed Dan's ability with multiple-character sketches, and it's not too much of a stretch to imagine his own take on Contra-like Socratic dialog. (And come on, wouldn't he enjoy having a furry character like Tabby?) Dan certainly can be very funny, and has no trouble making his humor filthy. I'd love to see Dan explore his views on a serious topic in a video.

If you somehow haven't gotten on the Contra bandwagon yet, her most recent video is as good a place as any to start:



Anyone else have some Contra thoughts?

[flarequake]

Oh, good thread and thank you for reminding me of her. I went back to the beginning of her channel a few months ago and left it a few videos in, forgot to go back, but I'm in awe of the depth and breadth of her knowledge and the way she puts it all across that she's taken seriously by so many different people and makes it so acerbic, plus the frivolity of the costumes and characters, all very entertaining.

I'd love to see Dan have the confidence to do something similar if he wanted to. I'm projecting when I wonder if he'd have the mindset for formal education, it would stress me out to go back to it and have to read so much, write to deadlines etc, and I think it's possible to find the kind of education you'd get from it without going to university, if you know where to look (books, other essay-type youtubers, specialist meetups, etc. I think it's out there, anyway, but maybe you might as well do a degree after all of that). I miss his humour, the asides and comments, the characters, it'd be great if he brought something like that back.

Also, my 2000nth post and now I'm a fursona, how apt

[obsessivelymoody]

I loved today's new video from her. As clever, funny, and witty as always, while still making those hard-hitting points. I appreciate how honest she always is, and this was definitely more of a step into her as a person than usual, and I commend her for sharing something so personal.

[Philena]

I loved today's new video from her. As clever, funny, and witty as always, while still making those hard-hitting points. I appreciate how honest she always is, and this was definitely more of a step into her as a person than usual, and I commend her for sharing something so personal.

Agreed. I found myself tearing up at her honesty.

[itasca00]

I watched one of Natalie's videos when Dan tweeted about it March, and I was so impressed that I subscribed after watching just that one video. I've been meaning to check out her other videos ever since, and I finally got the chance when I was on a flight last week. Since then, I've watched almost half of her videos, and I find myself already waiting expectantly for her next one!

I don't have anything intelligent to add about Natalie's overall greatness, so I'm just going to share two random, small things from her videos that I have found memorable:

• When describing the faults of the Ten Commandments, Natalie calls God "snowflake Yahweh" (here). This is my new favorite phrase. It makes me laugh every time I rewatch that part of the video.
• This credits song ("One Thing" by Zoë Blade ft. Ann Bailey) is amazing, and I had to buy it as soon as I heard it.

[lefthandedism]

Natalie is quoted in an article in the New York Times about alt-right radicalizaton on YouTube. The whole article is an interesting read; before watching ContraPoints, I had managed to keep my knowledge of incels and the alt-right largely at a superficial level (and I'm glad to keep Natalie as an intermediary, frankly).

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/201 ... dical.html

And here's the way to get there via Twitter :

[lefthandedism]

Another great article about Natalie. She seems to be getting a lot of press these days!

[thephandommenace]

Saw Contrapoints mentioned in the main thread after Dan's video drop, I've been out of the idb loop for over a year now I think, but just wanted to stay, oh we STAN

I love her videos so much, and yeah I find her pretty hot as well I was so grateful for the Gender Critical video, I feel like that video is changing a lot of minds. She's so articulate ughhh. I enjoyed the Beauty video too as it had been something I'd been thinking for a while as well, alleviating dysphoria vs the desire to be beautiful.

[lefthandedism]

On the Media has always been on of my favorite radio shows/podcasts, so I was excited to hear one of my favorite YouTubers featured in a long piece--about LeftTube, of course.

How YouTube's Left is Changing Minds

The piece is a good telling of the story of disaffected teens falling down the right wing YouTube rabbithole, and getting pulled out by Natalie and her cohort.

Natalie has really been all over the mainstream media recently (a lot of links are in her Twitter). It's interesting that she is a much smaller YouTuber than Deppy, but she's getting much better name recognition outside YouTube. As this piece mentions, the (US) Library of Congress is archiving her channel because of its social impact, which definitely seems like a big deal.

All this recognition must increase the pressure on her exponentially, especially with the amazingly high-stakes election coming up next year. I hope she is taking care of herself and getting a lot of whatever support she needs. And I hope she is feeling the love of her fans!

[alittledizzy]

So it looks like Natalie deleted her twitter?

[lefthandedism]

Huh. It was always interesting to me that her account wasn't verified. (Not that the two are necessarily related!)

[obsessivelymoody]

So it looks like Natalie deleted her twitter?

She was (and still is tbh) getting a lot of hate because (and I wish I had screenshots but I don't) she quote tweeted another trans woman's tweet about it being uncomfortable when a group of cis women go around saying their names and pronouns when it's obvious that they're only doing that because they know she's trans. Natalie was agreeing with the original tweet, and proceeded to get a lot of hate because many people felt like it was ignorant of non binary people and other gender nonconforming identities as well as the strive to normalize letting people know your pronouns. Natalie was replying that yeah, she knows that but it's her account and she's allowed to complain on it.

Now, I wasnt following it super closely so I'm not sure if anything else happened besides that instance escalating over the last few days, but it escalated rather fast and intensely.

Edit: this reddit post explains it better than I do

[liola]

I followed the drama last night and wasn't THAT surprised that she deleted her account. It's not the first instance where it seems like she's invalidating NB people, this tweet has a couple of screenshots.

I think she definitely misspoke and the whole thing blew up, but it's been some time where it has looked like her desire to pass 100% has made her feel more and more pulled by the binary and less towards the understanding of non binary spectrum.

Personally as a cis person I find myself uncomfortable even speaking about it, I find it not my place, but the whole thing was interesting to me because as a Cis person I would be uncomfortable ever disclosing my pronouns irl to someone, because it would make me fear the other person would think I was "clocking" them. It's also completely unheard of, at least here in Italy, of someone disclosing their pronouns and most of the comments were telling her that she was making a general discourse out of a very personal experience.

I think lately she started using her Twitter more like a vent account than a platform and I think she just needs some time to think. The whole situation would've gone a lot better if she said "I didn't say it right, I don't mean to invalidate you, sorry" instead she ended it with a "I understand that it invalidates you and I'm sorry but it makes me feel bad"

I hope she's okay and that she's taking time to think about the use of Twitter. And also I hope she doesn't feel terrible because her tweets are now being used by alt rights and terfs to prove a point as if she would ever give them the time of day

[alittledizzy]

Really happy to see her back on social media.

[obsessivelymoody]

Agreed, very nice to see her back. Breaks are good, and I'm glad she seems to be doing well.

If anyone wants to see an update she did about her little break on patreon, see below.

[poweroftriangles]

Lol @ that insta caption. I guess it's all too easy these days to get worked up in an outrage over out-of-context, bad-faith interpretations.
I'm glad she's taking a break. I hope she has good, quality discussions with nonbinary people irl because that's a way better way to discuss something contentious where different people have different needs but the common goal is clear. We all lose sight of that on social media.

[obsessivelymoody]

This actually makes me upset. As a cis person I don't think it's my place to talk about the feelings of trans and nb people so I won't, but I still think it's shitty to drive someone off their own account to the point that it escalates to this. She seems to be comfortable at least, which is what matters most. But this kind of stuff still upsets me to see. It's a shame, I think.

[lefthandedism]

The good news is that it doesn't have to be forever. Obviously, Natalie can take her account back when she wants to. But for now, this might be the best interim solution.

[obsessivelymoody]

The good news is that it doesn't have to be forever. Obviously, Natalie can take her account back when she wants to. But for now, this might be the best interim solution.

Quite right, and in fact she has now! I'm glad she feels better enough to come back to her account.

[Katka]

All of this shit happened and she still decided to feature Buck Angel in her new video... Yeah, as a nonbinary person I can't watch it, not even for Dan. And I really think we might have to stop making excuses for her. I know this is a super unpopular opinion but I still feel strongly about this, seeing how it affects me personally, so here we go.

[lefthandedism]

All of this shit happened and she still decided to feature Buck Angel in her new video... Yeah, as a nonbinary person I can't watch it, not even for Dan. And I really think we might have to stop making excuses for her. I know this is a super unpopular opinion but I still feel strongly about this, seeing how it affects me personally, so here we go.

Can you explain further? I guess I'm clueless about Buck Angel.....and I'm happy to be educated.

[Katka]

Basically he's a trans man but his ideas enforce the gender binary a lot and he has been known to exclude nonbinary people from trans spaces. If you look at his Twitter, his opinions speak for themselves. He's also quite problematic in other ways: He outed Lana Wachowski for instance, he's apparently friends with Graham Linehan and he thinks that modern trans people push a "trans agenda" which I don't even wanna get into.

I really hope Contra clears this up because I do want to believe her when she says she doesn't mean to exclude nonbinary people. But when she says that and her next video features someone who actively does exclude nonbinary people, it's getting hard to believe her. She also gave him a special shoutout on Twitter on top of all that.

I actually hope she might just not have researched him well enough. (And judging by the fact she called Oscar Wilde English in the new video, which is a bit of an insult when you consider what English society did to this Irish playwright, I'm gonna say she might not have researched every person featured in the video well enough.) But it's all just a bit of a mess, her saying she doesn't want to exclude nonbinary trans people and then going ahead with a collab with someone who def. wants to exclude them.

[obsessivelymoody]

Natalie posted about Buck Angel on Patreon. Not a fan of having to wait like a month to hear what she has to say about this because from what I've seen I'm just disappointed. At least it does give her time to properly articulate her opinion, but the "other reasons" bit is vague enough to make me feel pretty meh about this atm

[lefthandedism]

Thanks for posting this!

I've watched all of Natalie's videos, and she has been pretty clear that she is not a transmedicalist, so that part rings true. But yeah the rest is pretty vague.

[poweroftriangles]

I think it's easier to counter "people think I'm secretly a transmedicalist" with "no, I am not a transmedicalist", which is true. However, I think more people have a problem with the fact that Buck being a transmedicalist is not a dealbreaker to being his friend and including him in a video. I'm curious what she has to say about this. But she's publically interacted with lots of current and ex-right-wingers, for example*; so I'm not surprised if this wasn't a dealbreaker either.

One more thing she hasn't addressed afaik is the reptile metaphor in her videos and merch, which has anti-Semitic origins, although she just uses it to mean billionaires. She does so much research, it's hard to believe she missed this. I don't know, I really like her videos but some of these things are becoming increasingly indefensible.

*actually i think engaging with the "other side" is fine and in fact good. someone has to do it, or we'd all just be talking at each other. and i think she does a uniquely good job of "meeting them where they're at" and not hitting them with the jargon or the purity culture. but uncritically including someone in a video is quite another matter.