Dan & Phil Part 19: Banging on the breakfast bar

[bluntedclaws]

It also makes me a little uncomfortable seeing all these girls look at D&P as some sort of dress up dolls

You know what would be really hilarious and supercringeTM? They could sell Barbie-sized dolls of themselves on DanandPhilshop. OMG I can't stop laughing to myself now at the mental images of what people would do with their dress-up dolls.

[SquishPhan]

Yeah, nail polish, neither on girls nor on boys, doesn't interest me at all, and I think everyone here isn't particularly eager to see Dan wear it... I guess it's just that the majority of the phandom is weird and creepy. Also, I don't obviously think it suits Phils's personality at all, it's just that he has really nice nails

It also makes me a little uncomfortable seeing all these girls look at D&P as some sort of dress up dolls (Dan with this nail polish thing, or Phil with the pastel thing): you should wear this, you should wear that... am I the only one?

I don't get the obsession with nail polish either.

And yes it also makes me uncomfortable. Like I'm sure that if wanted to wear something they would do so all on their own, no probing needed.

[flarequake]

It also makes me a little uncomfortable seeing all these girls look at D&P as some sort of dress up dolls

You know what would be really hilarious and supercringeTM? They could sell Barbie-sized dolls of themselves on DanandPhilshop. OMG I can't stop laughing to myself now at the mental images of what people would do with their dress-up dolls.

I agree it's pushy and they shouldn't be told/asked "do this/that" all the time, plus ofc dolls would get posed in all sorts of questionable ways, but imagine the tiny clothes we could make for them? I'd buy those and I might even take up a little miniature tailoring. Don't mind me, I've been needing a new hobby for a while.

[ducksss]

It also makes me a little uncomfortable seeing all these girls look at D&P as some sort of dress up dolls

You know what would be really hilarious and supercringeTM? They could sell Barbie-sized dolls of themselves on DanandPhilshop. OMG I can't stop laughing to myself now at the mental images of what people would do with their dress-up dolls.

omg if they actually made the dolls I wouldn't even feel sorry for them because it would be like asking for it

I agree it's pushy and they shouldn't be told/asked "do this/that" all the time, plus ofc dolls would get posed in all sorts of questionable ways, but imagine the tiny clothes we could make for them? I'd buy those and I might even take up a little miniature tailoring. Don't mind me, I've been needing a new hobby for a while.

I'd like to have a doll head only, in actual size, to be their hairdresser

[mysterylovescompany]

It also makes me a little uncomfortable seeing all these girls look at D&P as some sort of dress up dolls

You know what would be really hilarious and supercringeTM? They could sell Barbie-sized dolls of themselves on DanandPhilshop. OMG I can't stop laughing to myself now at the mental images of what people would do with their dress-up dolls.

My mind immediately went to the gutter. I blame all of you for giving me a dirty mind.

[bluntedclaws]

It also makes me a little uncomfortable seeing all these girls look at D&P as some sort of dress up dolls

You know what would be really hilarious and supercringeTM? They could sell Barbie-sized dolls of themselves on DanandPhilshop. OMG I can't stop laughing to myself now at the mental images of what people would do with their dress-up dolls.

My mind immediately went to the gutter. I blame all of you for giving me a dirty mind.

Oh my mind was totally in the gutter when I wrote that.
I WANT dolls now.

[Winston]

It also makes me a little uncomfortable seeing all these girls look at D&P as some sort of dress up dolls

You know what would be really hilarious and supercringeTM? They could sell Barbie-sized dolls of themselves on DanandPhilshop. OMG I can't stop laughing to myself now at the mental images of what people would do with their dress-up dolls.

My mind immediately went to the gutter. I blame all of you for giving me a dirty mind.

Mine too. Just pictured photos that people would take of them doing things to each other and random inappropriate objects....

I also do not understand the obsession with painted nails and pastel clothes. Maybe it's a generational thing in my case? I don't understand them in general, let alone in regards to deppy. I do notice that some shippers have this thing about "femenising" Dan for whatever reason. Is it a way to make their relationship seen more heteronormative? I assume those that want a feminized Dan also ship them...?

[mermaid blood]

So I had a theory about the timeline last year, when the bour was first announced. i guess this week has reminded me of it - do we think that the push to get it released this year, undoubtedly losing a few extra bucks from including Australia and (probable) Europe tour in the footage is to stick to some sort of deadline? do they have projects they need to start in 2017? or is it a personal/private milestone; the desire to wrap up this particular era neatly at the close of 2016? if they've already done an edit and it goes on sale later this year as Dan said in his liveshow, surely they're missing an opportunity to include more and release a little later. feels deliberate to me, somehow.

Good to hear that they are involved in this, not that I really doubted it because they are control freaks. Also really want to see it.

agree, i was buoyed to see they haven't relinquished too much control. i feel sliiiiightly ambivalent about more tour-related stuff, but i have a feeling i'll be pleasantly surprised when i see the final product anyway. i trust their taste and they usually hit the mark with fan culture-celebratory stuff, with a few notable exceptions. if it seems like they love it, i probably will too.

random shower thought that's a little bit too so don't take it seriously i'm just bored:

i was thinking about phil saying that the bus interior was mostly black the other day during his ls (it!!! wasn't!!! stop fucking with my brain philip) and trying to make sense out of it and then i remembered that in the hotel room ls someone asked for a bus tour and dan said maybe? (or at least looked like he was considering it i'm too lazy to rewatch it and check) and you know whose tour bus was mostly black/really dark brown inside, the merch crew's, and that one doesn't have an incriminating bedroom, so maybe they filmed that bus???

i know that doesn't make any sense considering that they tweeted about their magical bus with two bedrooms that doesn't exist/phil getting the bedroom with the tv and toilet, and the merch crew bus only has bunks, but hey, it was a shower thought, leave me alone (but lol imagine if something like this happens, as in they lie about something bus-related in the documentary, that would be an interesting day for idb)

I'm glad #busgate hasn't died with the US tour. I toots see that happening. That dog-face selfie Phil tweeted is proof that they've at least hung out in the merch bus. I'll be surprised if we get any bus footage that goes past the lounge area in the front anyway. We'll get a few shots of them sitting on the couches, knowing that the interior doesn't match any of the star coaches and it won't fucking matter because no one pays attention and no one really gives a shit outside of IDB.

ooooooo busgate is back. i hadn't thought of this filming-the-other-bus possibility, for some reason my brain forgot the documentary was happening until Dan's tweet. thank god everyone on here has a better understanding of it than me, i'm fully relying on your analysis and poofs when it comes out. mostly you, manged.

Yeah, nail polish, neither on girls nor on boys, doesn't interest me at all, and I think everyone here isn't particularly eager to see Dan wear it... I guess it's just that the majority of the phandom is weird and creepy. Also, I don't obviously think it suits Phils's personality at all, it's just that he has really nice nails

It also makes me a little uncomfortable seeing all these girls look at D&P as some sort of dress up dolls (Dan with this nail polish thing, or Phil with the pastel thing): you should wear this, you should wear that... am I the only one?

I don't get the obsession with nail polish either.

And yes it also makes me uncomfortable. Like I'm sure that if wanted to wear something they would do so all on their own, no probing needed.

I'm all for turning the analysis back on the fans, i find it fascinating too. but just because you aren't personally interested in something, doesn't mean those who are are 'weird and creepy'.

feminising dan and phil seems harmless and non-offensive to me, what makes me uncomfortable is people on here being uncomfortable with it, as if it's somehow distasteful to imagine a man feminised.

And one more thing, athough I am kinda late: wtf is up with this "Dan should wear nail polish" thing?!?! I don't understand why it exists and where it comes from!
Plus, if anything, I think Phil is the one that should wear it, since his nails have a much better shape than Dan's! Dan's nails are squared and small compared to his fingers, so imo nail polish, especially if black, would look awkward on him and make his fingers look kinda fat. Phil's nails, instead... damn, I'd kill to have his nails instead of my short squared ones they look so classy just look at them:

eh, what? this is kind of gross.
there's nothing wrong with Dan's hands, fingers, or the shape of his nails...he'd look lovely in nail polish and i hope he'd be confident enough to ignore comments like this one from the phandom (because you're not the only person i've seen, in the last week) if he so chose to wear it in the future. would you call another woman's hands fat and recommend they don't wear something that draws attention to them?

body-shaming a man for the shitty beauty standards women are unfairly held up to is in itself pretty feminising.

[SquishPhan]

Yeah, nail polish, neither on girls nor on boys, doesn't interest me at all, and I think everyone here isn't particularly eager to see Dan wear it... I guess it's just that the majority of the phandom is weird and creepy. Also, I don't obviously think it suits Phils's personality at all, it's just that he has really nice nails

It also makes me a little uncomfortable seeing all these girls look at D&P as some sort of dress up dolls (Dan with this nail polish thing, or Phil with the pastel thing): you should wear this, you should wear that... am I the only one?

I don't get the obsession with nail polish either.

And yes it also makes me uncomfortable. Like I'm sure that if wanted to wear something they would do so all on their own, no probing needed.

I'm all for turning the analysis back on the fans, i find it fascinating too. but just because you aren't personally interested in something, doesn't mean those who are are 'weird and creepy'.

feminising dan and phil seems harmless and non-offensive to me, what makes me uncomfortable is people on here being uncomfortable with it, as if it's somehow distasteful to imagine a man feminised.

It's not the idea that makes me uncomfortable, it's the actively pushing the idea onto that I don't care for. Imagine all you want, but don't push.

[itsonlybeth]

Hi everyone, I just joined today but thought I'd jump right in!

I think Dan and Phil are up to so much right now and their branding has never been stronger so really I feel like fans are trying to project ideas onto them (e.g nail polish and pastel edits) in an attempt to control them. Obviously this isn't right but the gap between Youtuber and fans is growing wider so fans might be trying to bridge the gap in this way.

Sorry if that was a bit too GG for your liking, I'm not sure how IDB rolls.

[mermaid blood]

Yeah, nail polish, neither on girls nor on boys, doesn't interest me at all, and I think everyone here isn't particularly eager to see Dan wear it... I guess it's just that the majority of the phandom is weird and creepy. Also, I don't obviously think it suits Phils's personality at all, it's just that he has really nice nails

It also makes me a little uncomfortable seeing all these girls look at D&P as some sort of dress up dolls (Dan with this nail polish thing, or Phil with the pastel thing): you should wear this, you should wear that... am I the only one?

I don't get the obsession with nail polish either.

And yes it also makes me uncomfortable. Like I'm sure that if wanted to wear something they would do so all on their own, no probing needed.

I'm all for turning the analysis back on the fans, i find it fascinating too. but just because you aren't personally interested in something, doesn't mean those who are are 'weird and creepy'.

feminising dan and phil seems harmless and non-offensive to me, what makes me uncomfortable is people on here being uncomfortable with it, as if it's somehow distasteful to imagine a man feminised.

It's not the idea that makes me uncomfortable, it's the actively pushing the idea onto that I don't care for. Imagine all you want, but don't push.

that's valid. i feel the same about people pressuring them to come out, disguising it as 'support'. i guess i haven't seen examples of where fans are pressuring or shaming dan and phil into exploring the aesthetic they like to imagine them in, i haven't seen evidence of that but that isn't to say it's not out there.

the punk edits video was received very well, and that is what my mind went to when Dan was addressing the pastel aesthetic and nail polish in his liveshow. he understood where the punk suggestion came from as it is an ideal and a lifestyle not just an aesthetic; but sounded more like he wanted someone to explain to him if there was a similar weight behind pastel clothing, rather than being particularly offended or pressured.

Winston, why do you imagine it is heterosexual women shipping them who want to see Dan feminised, do you mean as a self-projection type of thing into the phan relationship? does feminine clothing equal female gender to you?

edit: i forgot to mention, i'm not personally supportive of them doing a video or taking photos because they're pandering to an audience, if they're not already interested in it on a personal level (eg. punk). Dan has chosen many times and owns things gendered by society as feminine, pink socks, mugs, he buys women's cut clothing occasionally if it fits him, he expressed interest in a dress years ago. what he hasn't expressed interest in independently is the pastel aesthetic, rings or nail polish. but nor does he think they're for females, as he doesn't appear to think his hello kitty collection or anything else for that matter are female, so i think i take issue when fans do it for him. (and then object to other fans picking up on these snippets from him and expanding their interest in it)

[corn flakes]

Yeah, nail polish, neither on girls nor on boys, doesn't interest me at all, and I think everyone here isn't particularly eager to see Dan wear it... I guess it's just that the majority of the phandom is weird and creepy. Also, I don't obviously think it suits Phils's personality at all, it's just that he has really nice nails

It also makes me a little uncomfortable seeing all these girls look at D&P as some sort of dress up dolls (Dan with this nail polish thing, or Phil with the pastel thing): you should wear this, you should wear that... am I the only one?

I don't get the obsession with nail polish either.

And yes it also makes me uncomfortable. Like I'm sure that if wanted to wear something they would do so all on their own, no probing needed.

I'm all for turning the analysis back on the fans, i find it fascinating too. but just because you aren't personally interested in something, doesn't mean those who are are 'weird and creepy'.

feminising dan and phil seems harmless and non-offensive to me, what makes me uncomfortable is people on here being uncomfortable with it, as if it's somehow distasteful to imagine a man feminised.

I don't have any problem with you being you what I have a problem with is people pushing this idea in dan specifically, only because he is the more feminine of the duo,is people telling other people what to do (ex.going to a m&G and making them promise to use the nail polish or going with a stupid card to push the issue). Do I have a problem with people only thinking how cute they would look with nail polish, no is the answer, I don't understand the fascination but whatever till you don't go pushing the issue to two real people you do you.

[jaej]

the obsession with nail polish and stuff is creepy imo. at best dan has seen it as a neutral thing, at worst he's said he wouldn't wear it, there's really no reason to want or expect him to wear it. and whether or not they should be (hint: they shouldn't be at all) clothing and things like that ARE gendered in our society. even as plenty of us are pointed out that no clothing is 'women's' clothing, it's perceived as such, and therefore it's gendered.
imo it sometimes comes down to people not thinking they're ~queer enough~. there's certainly a decent portion of the phandom who want them to be more like troye sivan or olly alexander and become political statements in themselves. people want them to represent bigger societal ideas that they shouldn't have to do. some people associate going against gendered societal norms as a sign of being a better person and a gentle angel bean uwu despite the fact that supporting something as an idea doesn't mean you need to do it yourself.

[Winston]

Yeah, nail polish, neither on girls nor on boys, doesn't interest me at all, and I think everyone here isn't particularly eager to see Dan wear it... I guess it's just that the majority of the phandom is weird and creepy. Also, I don't obviously think it suits Phils's personality at all, it's just that he has really nice nails

It also makes me a little uncomfortable seeing all these girls look at D&P as some sort of dress up dolls (Dan with this nail polish thing, or Phil with the pastel thing): you should wear this, you should wear that... am I the only one?

I don't get the obsession with nail polish either.

And yes it also makes me uncomfortable. Like I'm sure that if wanted to wear something they would do so all on their own, no probing needed.

I'm all for turning the analysis back on the fans, i find it fascinating too. but just because you aren't personally interested in something, doesn't mean those who are are 'weird and creepy'.

feminising dan and phil seems harmless and non-offensive to me, what makes me uncomfortable is people on here being uncomfortable with it, as if it's somehow distasteful to imagine a man feminised.

It's not the idea that makes me uncomfortable, it's the actively pushing the idea onto that I don't care for. Imagine all you want, but don't push.

that's valid. i feel the same about people pressuring them to come out, disguising it as 'support'. i guess i haven't seen examples of where fans are pressuring or shaming dan and phil into exploring the aesthetic they like to imagine them in, i haven't seen evidence of that but that isn't to say it's not out there.

the punk edits video was received very well, and that is what my mind went to when Dan was addressing the pastel aesthetic and nail polish in his liveshow. he understood where the punk suggestion came from as it is an ideal and a lifestyle not just an aesthetic; but sounded more like he wanted someone to explain to him if there was a similar weight behind pastel clothing, rather than being particularly offended or pressured.

Winston, why do you imagine it is heterosexual women shipping them who want to see Dan feminised, do you mean as a self-projection type of thing into the phan relationship? does feminine clothing equal female gender to you?

edit: i forgot to mention, i'm not personally supportive of them doing a video or taking photos because they're pandering to an audience, if they're not already interested in it on a personal level (eg. punk). Dan has chosen many times and owns things gendered by society as feminine, pink socks, mugs, he buys women's cut clothing occasionally if it fits him, he expressed interest in a dress years ago. what he hasn't expressed interest in independently is the pastel aesthetic, rings or nail polish. but nor does he think they're for females, as he doesn't appear to think his hello kitty collection or anything else for that matter are female, so i think i take issue when fans do it for him. (and then object to other fans picking up on these snippets from him and expanding their interest in it)

I didn't say anything about hetero females. I said shippers in general, so it could be anyone who ships them, male/female/ or what have you. That said the majority of the younger shippers, seem to be younger females, hetero or not. And age may play into the heternormativity (is that even a word?) of making one part of the duo more "feminine". I say it with quote to indicate societal norms not my own personal beliefs.

I personally love that Dan explores all types of clothes, no matter what sex it was intended for in the first place. And am happy that he feels comfortable enough to show his "less masculine" side, i.e. Hello kitty etc. I say whatever floats ones boat.. Hell I am female, married to a man but tend to lean more “masculine” in a lot of things, than a lot of woman.

I hope this made sense, and got my point across, as I am doing about a million things while I write this. (also hope it doesn't sound confrontational or hostile-it’s not meant to, just trying to make is short and to the point)

[LurkingTrash]

So I had a theory about the timeline last year, when the bour was first announced. i guess this week has reminded me of it - do we think that the push to get it released this year, undoubtedly losing a few extra bucks from including Australia and (probable) Europe tour in the footage is to stick to some sort of deadline? do they have projects they need to start in 2017? or is it a personal/private milestone; the desire to wrap up this particular era neatly at the close of 2016? if they've already done an edit and it goes on sale later this year as Dan said in his liveshow, surely they're missing an opportunity to include more and release a little later. feels deliberate to me, somehow.

Good to hear that they are involved in this, not that I really doubted it because they are control freaks. Also really want to see it.

agree, i was buoyed to see they haven't relinquished too much control. i feel sliiiiightly ambivalent about more tour-related stuff, but i have a feeling i'll be pleasantly surprised when i see the final product anyway. i trust their taste and they usually hit the mark with fan culture-celebratory stuff, with a few notable exceptions. if it seems like they love it, i probably will too.

They said they finished editing the 'making of' maybe they're planning to include footage of the crowds and places they toured in the other video? idk I didn't thought about it before but I think it might be a possibility.
They could also be finishing the edits right now and add footage from the new venues later just before releasing, as in: maybe youtube red is making they work on it early.

my little take on the nail polish discussion: I think it's gross how some of the phandom is pushing it on Dan, they really need to chill out, like someone pointed out earlier: when Dan talks about it he sounds like he really doesn't want to and that should be the end of the conversation, but as long as you're not pushing it on them it's a perfectly okay idea to have. To me it's very similar to the shipping: Feel free to do it as long as you're not shoving it in their faces.

[alittledizzy]

It's interesting to me (in a sad way) how Phil is both ignored in this conversation and subsequently dragged out only to provide a prop or counterpoint to Dan. As a friend pointed out, no one has even mentioned how Phil's natural style leans more toward pastel anyway (just by virtue of the colors and clothing he chooses to wear) and it doesn't seem to detract from his masculinity in anyone's eyes. Dan and Phil are both being given the nail polish and both being asked in liveshows but this conversation is almost entirely about Dan and Dan with Phil being tugged along for the ride.

To me that reads like people seem offended by the feminisation of Dan because they see him as already having feminine characteristics. This implies it isn't just about the look or not wanting people to push something on Dan, it's about people wanting to defend Dan's masculinity somehow against people trying to expand on interests Dan has already shown, or at the very least shown they aren't offended or upset by.

Personally in this instance I don't think fans need to take offense where Dan (and Phil) don't. If they can handle two thousand people shouting at them to kiss while they're live on stage or without flinching, I don't think they're losing sleep over a few questions on a livestream or a couple fans a meet and greet "pushing" something on them. And if they're taking issue with what they get in twitter replies and in the tumblr tag then surely there are things that would bother them way worse than nail polish.

[PolarFox]

When I see people pushing some stuff like the nailpolish on Dan, my mind goes to that annoying relatives who are like "but why don't you wear this or that?! You'd look sooooo gooood in/with it!" And then they for example proceed to buy you that thing to encourage you. It's in good mind, because they truly believe you'd look good with/in it to them, but they don't consider what you think. So I think it's something like that.
I personaly couldn't care less about what they wear as long as they feel good in it.

[mermaid blood]

Winston sorry, i assumed you were conflating a fan's desire to be in a heterosexual relationship with you perceiving them as wanting to imagine Dan as female because they want him to dress a certain way.

LurkingTrash that's true, they could try and add bits at the last minute. it just feels...weirdly hurried to me. when they haven't even announced the European tour yet. i was surprised to hear Dan say it would be out before the end of the year.

jaej
If that is what people are feeling with annoyance at fans not thinking they're subversive enough, or queer enough, then yeah, i totally agree with you. that is also something i see that really bothers me (especially being queer myself, and constantly feeling like i need to prove it). i'm just not sure it's the whole picture.

it feels like an ingredient, but the broth is not that simple. motivations are complex, the fandom may act like a hivemind at times but simplifying observable actions of many and presuming their intent simply so you can dismiss and shame them feels counter productive to any sort of intelligent discussion. i just felt, reading back the last few pages, that IDB was better than that.

It's interesting to me (in a sad way) how Phil is both ignored in this conversation and subsequently dragged out only to provide a prop or counterpoint to Dan. As a friend pointed out, no one has even mentioned how Phil's natural style leans more toward pastel anyway (just by virtue of the colors and clothing he chooses to wear) and it doesn't seem to detract from his masculinity in anyone's eyes. Dan and Phil are both being given the nail polish and both being asked in liveshows but this conversation is almost entirely about Dan and Dan with Phil being tugged along for the ride.

To me that reads like people seem offended by the feminisation of Dan because they see him as already having feminine characteristics. This implies it isn't just about the look or not wanting people to push something on Dan, it's about people wanting to defend Dan's masculinity somehow against people trying to expand on interests Dan has already shown, or at the very least shown they aren't offended or upset by.

Personally in this instance I don't think fans need to take offense where Dan (and Phil) don't. If they can handle two thousand people shouting at them to kiss while they're live on stage or without flinching, I don't think they're losing sleep over a few questions on a livestream or a couple fans a meet and greet "pushing" something on them. And if they're taking issue with what they get in twitter replies and in the tumblr tag then surely there are things that would bother them way worse than nail polish.

wow. yes. i'm struggling to think of what to respond to this.
you're so right - why is it offensive to Dan, and but apparently not to Phil? why does Phil's gender identity or apparent sensitivity not need defending?

your last paragraph feels particularly important.

[SquishPhan]

It's interesting to me (in a sad way) how Phil is both ignored in this conversation and subsequently dragged out only to provide a prop or counterpoint to Dan. As a friend pointed out, no one has even mentioned how Phil's natural style leans more toward pastel anyway (just by virtue of the colors and clothing he chooses to wear) and it doesn't seem to detract from his masculinity in anyone's eyes. Dan and Phil are both being given the nail polish and both being asked in liveshows but this conversation is almost entirely about Dan and Dan with Phil being tugged along for the ride.

To me that reads like people seem offended by the feminisation of Dan because they see him as already having feminine characteristics. This implies it isn't just about the look or not wanting people to push something on Dan, it's about people wanting to defend Dan's masculinity somehow against people trying to expand on interests Dan has already shown, or at the very least shown they aren't offended or upset by.

Personally in this instance I don't think fans need to take offense where Dan (and Phil) don't. If they can handle two thousand people shouting at them to kiss while they're live on stage or without flinching, I don't think they're losing sleep over a few questions on a livestream or a couple fans a meet and greet "pushing" something on them. And if they're taking issue with what they get in twitter replies and in the tumblr tag then surely there are things that would bother them way worse than nail polish.

I'm focusing on Dan, because I feel like I've seen more posts about him about this whole thing than Phil, this is certainly the case on Tumblr.
Also I thought that the person who wrote the list that included the nail polish did so only for Dan as did the person who actually bought it, but I may be wrong about that.
I also am focusing on Dan, because Phil has not even touched on the whole nail polish subject while Dan has. (Again unless I don't remember Phil talking about it).

When I see people pushing some stuff like the nailpolish on Dan, my mind goes to that annoying relatives who are like "but why don't you wear this or that?! You'd look sooooo gooood in/with it!" And then they for example proceed to buy you that thing to encourage you. It's in good mind, because they truly believe you'd look good with/in it to them, but they don't consider what you think. So I think it's something like that.
I personaly couldn't care less about what they wear as long as they feel good in it.

This is a good account of how I see it as well.

[Winston]

It's interesting to me (in a sad way) how Phil is both ignored in this conversation and subsequently dragged out only to provide a prop or counterpoint to Dan. As a friend pointed out, no one has even mentioned how Phil's natural style leans more toward pastel anyway (just by virtue of the colors and clothing he chooses to wear) and it doesn't seem to detract from his masculinity in anyone's eyes. Dan and Phil are both being given the nail polish and both being asked in liveshows but this conversation is almost entirely about Dan and Dan with Phil being tugged along for the ride.

To me that reads like people seem offended by the feminisation of Dan because they see him as already having feminine characteristics. This implies it isn't just about the look or not wanting people to push something on Dan, it's about people wanting to defend Dan's masculinity somehow against people trying to expand on interests Dan has already shown, or at the very least shown they aren't offended or upset by.

Personally in this instance I don't think fans need to take offense where Dan (and Phil) don't. If they can handle two thousand people shouting at them to kiss while they're live on stage or without flinching, I don't think they're losing sleep over a few questions on a livestream or a couple fans a meet and greet "pushing" something on them. And if they're taking issue with what they get in twitter replies and in the tumblr tag then surely there are things that would bother them way worse than nail polish.

It almost seems like the majority of the phandom just accepts Phil as the masculine one for whatever reason. Once again I am leaning towards the age (of the fans) thing. Societally (i.e. mainstream movies/books anything ) the “man” is the older in the relationship and the one to show less emotion, bla bla bla. And because of this “man” view, people don’t feel the need to defend him as much. He is a sweet noodle bean or whatever, but he is inherently the “man”. (can you hear my eyes rolling?) T

The pastel thing he doesn't need defending from that either as he already wears color, and is oh so sweet and bubbly it fits his personality more, even if he is the “man”. Since I don’t actually know what “pastel” culture is aside from aesthetic, is it considered feminine? To me it is genderless (is it, when talking about it as an edit...I hope so. They are colors for christ sake!) so why would it be going against his masculinity? If anything it goes against Dan’s aesthetic not his gender or how he identifies.

I agree defending Dan’s masculinity (or Phil’s) for that matter seems unnecessary as neither one of them seems to care one way or the other. Hell, Dan played female characters in skits multiple times and barely changed anything about himself. And Phil never seems to address it (even though he does play woman sometimes as well), so should make him neutral in any discussion.

They are themselves and like any other human being on the planet no one else should try and make them something they are not, nor should they pressure them to do something they are not comfortable with. They are ‘big boys” however, and a bunch of fans wanting them to wear nailpolish or pastel colors I am sure affects them very little.

[ducksss]

And one more thing, athough I am kinda late: wtf is up with this "Dan should wear nail polish" thing?!?! I don't understand why it exists and where it comes from!
Plus, if anything, I think Phil is the one that should wear it, since his nails have a much better shape than Dan's! Dan's nails are squared and small compared to his fingers, so imo nail polish, especially if black, would look awkward on him and make his fingers look kinda fat. Phil's nails, instead... damn, I'd kill to have his nails instead of my short squared ones they look so classy just look at them:

eh, what? this is kind of gross.
there's nothing wrong with Dan's hands, fingers, or the shape of his nails...he'd look lovely in nail polish and i hope he'd be confident enough to ignore comments like this one from the phandom (because you're not the only person i've seen, in the last week) if he so chose to wear it in the future. would you call another woman's hands fat and recommend they don't wear something that draws attention to them?

body-shaming a man for the shitty beauty standards women are unfairly held up to is in itself pretty feminising.

Ok, maybe I didn't explain myself properly and maybe I have been too blunt with the nail shape thing. I'll try again.
My problem it's the fact that these people directly push the issue on him without being asked. And it makes me uncomfortable not because I feel offended on his behalf (after years in the spotlight, he definitely can handle people and their judgements better than me), but mainly because it's something I have seen and experienced frequently in my life, like when I was still in high school and everyone kept telling my friend that she was too skinny and she would look nicer with a couple kilos more, or when they told me "why don't you always straighten your hair?"... I also think it's cringy when teenagers insist that a grown up man should do something they find cute to fulfill their fantasies.
And about the fact that I find other people's fantasies (Pastel edits, D&P wearing dresses, nail polish for Dan) weird and sometimes creepy... well, it's not something I can fix, so maybe if I don't want to offend anyone I should keep my opinions to myself?
After this, I added (in what would have been, in a real life conversation, a lighthearted tone, to drift away from the more serious subject) that if we want to talk about "things that would look cute", I think nail polish would suit Phil's nail more than Dan's. I take my responsibilities for saying that I don't like his nail shape in what could have been perceived as a "shaming" tone, but I never implied that only people fitting certain beauty standards are allowed to wear something. I am all for wearing whatever you feel comfortable in. But I am also not a fan of sugarcoating, so if someone asks me how they look and I don't like it I always say "I don't think this suits you because *reasons*, but if you like it wear it!". I don't know if this qualifies as body-shaming.

It's interesting to me (in a sad way) how Phil is both ignored in this conversation and subsequently dragged out only to provide a prop or counterpoint to Dan. As a friend pointed out, no one has even mentioned how Phil's natural style leans more toward pastel anyway (just by virtue of the colors and clothing he chooses to wear) and it doesn't seem to detract from his masculinity in anyone's eyes. Dan and Phil are both being given the nail polish and both being asked in liveshows but this conversation is almost entirely about Dan and Dan with Phil being tugged along for the ride

About the Phil thing: maybe I am not up to date with everything, but I have only seen the nail polish issue being pressured on Dan, so that's why I am only talking about him; probably Phil chose to ignore it instead of answering, smart boy . I am also not a pastel expert, so I wouldn't have called Phil's style that, but it's probably just me.

And finally, at least for me, this

To me that reads like people seem offended by the feminisation of Dan because they see him as already having feminine characteristics. This implies it isn't just about the look or not wanting people to push something on Dan, it's about people wanting to defend Dan's masculinity somehow against people trying to expand on interests Dan has already shown, or at the very least shown they aren't offended or upset by.

is not true. I couldn't care less about the guys' "masculinity status".


I end with a disclaimer: since on the Internet things are apparently easily misinterpreted, I just wanna clarify that I don't want to be rude to anyone, and if I come off as that, please don't take it personally, it may just be that I don't know how to explain myself properly.

[bee]

I don't have anything useful to contribute as far as the nailpolish goes because I'm a confused mess about gender but

So I had a theory about the timeline last year, when the bour was first announced. i guess this week has reminded me of it - do we think that the push to get it released this year, undoubtedly losing a few extra bucks from including Australia and (probable) Europe tour in the footage is to stick to some sort of deadline? do they have projects they need to start in 2017? or is it a personal/private milestone; the desire to wrap up this particular era neatly at the close of 2016? if they've already done an edit and it goes on sale later this year as Dan said in his liveshow, surely they're missing an opportunity to include more and release a little later. feels deliberate to me, somehow.

I thought about this too! I think it's possibly to do with the new book? They have to wrap up Tabinof/Tatinof because of the New Thing. Who knows what they're planning with that. Maybe they want to do something aside from the book with that too.

[majitzu]

snokoplasm.com

It seems the Phandom has make a magazine, I haven't read it yet because the phandom has also crashed the website. But I'm sure it would be great. I feel sad about our magazine project that is now death. Maybe some of you that wrote that beautiful pages can contact them and have it published there? Anyway I want to read it.

[DeadlyNova]

I think the big "issue" with "feminization" in the phandom is definitely the fact it's projecting heteronormativity, as someone said earlier. It pushes stereotypes that same sex relationships must always have a "boy" and a "girl". Some same sex relationships do have one with more feminine characteristics and more masculine characteristics, but I wouldn't consider that the case with D&P.

I think the reason I brought up Dan originally is because, like someone else said, it's more common with him since a lot of people consider him the more effiminate of thr two.

With Phil I actually see a lot of people trying to push him off as much more "masculine" than he actually is, which also ties into the same problem.

On another note, the whole punk and pastel thing in fanfics is something I've never truly understood at all. Those styles don't really reflect the way they dress at all (not that I find the styles themselves bad) and I get that it's an AU but I don't think I'll ever quite underatand why it's more commom to make Dan pastel amd make Phil punk when their actual clothing choices, while not being too similar, are closer to the other.

[Sakura Selfie]

Re: nail polish

[offtopic]

whilst this is an interesting debate, I think there are two things that are possibly being forgotten, one is that nail polish on men has been around for years and it has little to do with sexuality in the uk it's more a reflection of the type of music you listen to, the punks did it in the 70s, the New Romantics did it in the 80s, the Emos/goths in the 90s/00s etc, very few people would bat an eyelid at a man (especially one who likes wearing an edgier style in his clothing) wearing nail polish, and it wouldn't necessarily be a reflection on his sexuality. Two, whilst this discussion is interesting it may be worth noting that the vast majority of people on this website seem to be older (20/30 etc), socially aware women, whilst the people pushing the nail polish seem to be younger teenagers. They may not be aware of any issues that may arise from this apart from the fact they think it will look cute on him. Just my tuppence on the matter

[/offtopic]