Dan & Phil Part 49: Don't curl, quiff

[onetruetrash]

i've always just assumed they queerbait and that most of the stuff dan mentions about attraction to guys is mainly just him joking (and plus after years of fans assuming he's attracted to guys and some of their comments have just seeped into his own language, if that makes sense).

although now with him criticising yoi it does make me kind of doubt myself but sometimes people can see other people doing things that the perceive as bad but at the same time can't apply that to their own behaviour.

some of this might just be my own mental gymnastics trying to convince myself that they aren't together though

This just makes me really sad to read. (Sad for Dan, sad for anyone who has their sexuality erased for no real reason when they've been pretty clear on not being straight.)

Okay, this reminded me of something that's really been annoying me lately.

The problem with the phandom now seems to be the opposite of the problem with the phandom in 2012. Back then, Dan was trying to convince people he was straight and people didn't believe him. Now that he actually wants to be out, people don't believe him because of what he did in 2012. People keep trying to say "He could be straight!" and wondering what hos sexuality is when he says he doesn't wanna be labelled. What's it gonna take for people to believe that he's not straight?

(Supporting teenage girls and their passions does not mean you aren't allowed to call out their problematic behaviour now and then. I'm absolutely here for teen girls and all their great potential but they can do some fucked up stuff and we shouldn't ignore that.)

Also agreed.

[iwishiwasacasual]

i've always just assumed they queerbait and that most of the stuff dan mentions about attraction to guys is mainly just him joking (and plus after years of fans assuming he's attracted to guys and some of their comments have just seeped into his own language, if that makes sense).

although now with him criticising yoi it does make me kind of doubt myself but sometimes people can see other people doing things that the perceive as bad but at the same time can't apply that to their own behaviour.

some of this might just be my own mental gymnastics trying to convince myself that they aren't together though

This just makes me really sad to read. (Sad for Dan, sad for anyone who has their sexuality erased for no real reason when they've been pretty clear on not being straight.)

jesus christ this made me feel so guilty.

i have about 50 mental conversations a day about whether its problematic for me to erase someones sexuality just because they don't explicitly state it, and is it right for me to assume they're guilty of queerbaiting when the only way to prove they're not would be to out themselves? because i know that i am (nor is anyone else) not entitled to know their sexuality if they're not willing to share it.

i've kind of adopted this 'guilty until proven innocent' attitude towards them regarding queerbaiting and i know its incredibly shitty of me and i should probably just shut the fuck up because people far smarter than i am have thought about it more and written their far more articulate thoughts on the topic.

but its how i feel and i think it through a lot. dan's comments on yoi have really made me rethink things because there's no way he could see queerbaiting being a problem in the show and then not apply that to himself if he really was guilty of it.

so yeah i recognise that my thoughts regarding dnp and queerbaiting are rather problematic but i'm working on it.

if were a therapist i'd probably blame it on my own inability to accept my own sexuality that causes me to doubt others blah blah blah

[queerofcups]

Can we... also just revisit what queerbaiting is?
Because queerbaiting is purposeful "will they? won't they? lol jk they never will, why would you think that?" It's not dissatisfying depictions of queerness, it's lying/teasing about queerness you were never gonna make good on.

Which, imo, is not the same as anything YoI is doing and also something Dip and Dots could have been cashing in in for years (god knows lads youtube does) and actually actively avoid.

[coffeepenguin]

Re: queerbating, I think we have to first distinguish queerbaiting as "person passing as queer" from queerbaiting as "people seemingly in a queer relationship", it's a bit different, especially when talking about real people. For example, what onetruetrash was talking about in an earlier post and now iwishiwasacasual, is a "one person queerbaiting". But what Dan is talking about in relation to YoI - and what many people accuse Deppy of - is a "relationship queerbaiting". I have a lot of thoughts about this, sorry, I'm very slow to be able to react tothe thread moving, I agree on the need to differentiate between real people's privacy and scripted TV shows, but on the other hand, youtube videos are scripted, too, what we get is, essentially, two characters named Dan and Phil, which was times and times again underlined when TATINOF was happening, that was a show about Dan and Phil "from the Internet". For me, it's clear that, outside of my problem with TATINOF and its fanfiction segment which I'm not gonna rant about again, Dan and Phil haven't done any "relationship queerbaiting" for a long time (some their early stuff is, frankly, debatable), but they get accused of it all the time because a). 2009-2010 stuff that keeps coming back all the time, b). they get shipped a lot, and c). they (as in "their youtube personas", too) have been passing as more and more queer lately but, for whatever reason, didn't take this opportunity to reiterate that they aren't attracted to each other as they were doing previously when they were passing as straight which confuses everybody.

Relying to dia's earlier post, basically, as we don't know how much of an intentional process is the thing from c), we don't know if Dan has been overthinking it like he does with everything else (I bet he has, but it's my personal opinion, not based on anything). If it's an intentional thing Deppy have had and/or keep having a serious conversation about, I do think there's some guilt because of how they, especially Dan, were behaving before, but not because they feel they owe us something. Remember when Dan was talking about rebranding in a liveshow and people thought he would be coming-out but then he dropped an ISG and was really defensive, saying he won't be doing what everyone thought he would be doing? It was quite clear to me he was talking about awaited coming-out. Otherwise, it would be anger at people interpreting them this way more than guilt, I'd say, but Deppy's common strategy is to ignore everything that bothers them, establishing their own narrative, so if being accused of queerbaiting bothers Dan, he's ignoring it, like with the Try Guys answer today (which was hilarious, imo), the harder they ignore the accusations, the angrier they are, something like that maybe, idk, I've been writing this post for two hours now, sorry it's shit

edit: agree with Katka on everything they said about YoI. Also, Deppy's history is nothing like victuuri, it's romanticising phan too much (maybe that's how fanfiction really influences shippers' perspective), the people/characters are very different in their personalities, the foundation of the two relationships is very different, Deppy's professional relationship has always been only a direct consequence of their personal relationship, whatever that is, not the driver for it

[Birdie]

Can we... also just revisit what queerbaiting is?
Because queerbaiting is purposeful "will they? won't they? lol jk they never will, why would you think that?" It's not dissatisfying depictions of queerness, it's lying/teasing about queerness you were never gonna make good on.

Which, imo, is not the same as anything YoI is doing and also something Dip and Dots could have been cashing in in for years (god knows lads youtube does) and actually actively avoid.

Queerbaiting discussion in general: Just because they aren’t out or might actually not be together (hey, we don’t know that) doesn’t mean their behaviour is queerbaiting. I 100% believe that their affection for each other is genuine, no matter if they’re friends or actually together. Believing their behaviour towards each other must be queerbaiting if they’re not together is actually all kinds of weird to me. Like, that’s heteronormative because you have to think male best friends can’t do that stuff unless they’re also a couple, right? It doesn’t make sense otherwise? Even if they’re friends, why would you think their affection for each other is fake or put on for the views? I don’t get that at all. Male best friends can be cuddly and affectionate and touchy. The way they treat each other is real, no matter if they’re together or not. How is this even still a debate in 2017?

I think a lot of the queerbaiting accusations stem from this. "Two men? Being affectionate with each other? How can this be unless they're a couple? Male friends aren't allowed to do that! They must be faking it for the views!" This is not an attack on anyone on here, just saying, but this riles me up so bad, this whole idea that if Deppy weren't together, they would be queerbaiting. Like... why? What's your argument here? What are they doing that only couples are allowed to do and if other people do it it must be fake? I don't get it.

(Just to make it clear, this has absolutely nothing to do with their sexualities. I do not think they’re straight. This is just about their relationship with each other which is still not confirmed.)

[000dia000]

that's fine, you're likely right about both idb being open to that conversation and i would agree about negative commentary about teen girls going uncommented upon. i've just also seen a lot (a lot) of conversations that might have gotten somewhere about fandom and the ways it treats actual queer relationships derailed into really masturbatory celebrations of how ~progressive fandom is for fandom to center women's desire as if that overrides any potential problematicness. which is what your comment reminded me of, hence the comment.

That's fair, and you've a good point regarding how sometimes things can be shoved aside with the excuse of celebratory treatment of behaviour, I suppose you have to come from from both angles.
Also:

(Supporting teenaged girls and their passions does not mean you aren’t allowed to call out their problematic behaviour now and then. I’m absolutely here for teen girls and all their great potential but they can do some fucked up stuff and we shouldn’t ignore that.)

Agreed, also.

And they are flooded with comments calling them f*ggots whenever one of their videos trends, so that should cancel out any accusation of queerbating they might receive.

To be fair, I'm not sure that would really relax any self-consciousness Dan might have, and this is only me speculating after all. Also, I think both Dan and Phil are susceptible to counter attacks from both sides: for some it's just "appearing" gay, and by others not being outright gay enough.

I even think that Dan feels this, implying that YOI queerbaits, while others feel that the show was clear through subtext and just fell victim to (possible) censorship. The point being, even though YOI was quite clear in the quite non-platonic relationship between Yuri and Victor, some people (including) Dan are still skeptical. Not due to being heteronormative/homophobic, but wary of subtext and just desiring outright representation. I've noticed that LGBT+ character relationships in the media that rely on subtext face criticism.

Desiring representation is not a bad thing btw, I just feel that Dan desires representation , and I just wonder if he ever feels (if him and Phil are dating) that they are not fulfilling this role? He may feel hypocritical of his own beliefs. If he is this wary of YOI, then I just wonder how he has come to realize how the subtlety of him and Phil is perceived? Also, just fully speculating here, but it could be reason for the post-baking universe, being very clear in his attraction mentions, and even liking that tweet recently where a girl thanked him. However, I still think that he wants his privacy, he doesn't want to draw attention to himself, so may be torn between subtlety and clear representation.

[queerofcups]

i've kind of adopted this 'guilty until proven innocent' attitude towards them regarding queerbaiting and i know its incredibly shitty of me and i should probably just shut the fuck up because people far smarter than i am have thought about it more and written their far more articulate thoughts on the topic.

Buddy (and I mean that sincerely), not to dog pile on you because you've clearly thought about this and know it's not ok but I really sincerely hope you're more generous and sympathetic to non-famous closeted people and the ways they try to navigate figuring out who is safe to come out to. Because yikes did that hurt.

[cherrybomb3]

if were a therapist i'd probably blame it on my own inability to accept my own sexuality that causes me to doubt others blah blah blah

not to intrude and sorry if you didnt want attention being brought to this but if you ever need help accepting yourself (i know its harder than it looks so again sorry if this sounds patronising) im sure any of the people here would be able to discuss it with you if that would help in any way isg and all that

[pastelspectre]

I have a question for you all while we wait and see if there's a Dan liveshow later.

I've only recently started reading Phan fiction even though I've stanned deppy over a year now, and it got me to wondering whether you all read Phan fiction and when/why you started. Also, what I'm most interested in (since lulls on here usually come back to shipping) do you nonshippers read Phan fiction? I'm curious from both shippers and nonshippers, how does reading Phan fiction or not affect whether you ship it (and by ship it I'm including believing Phan is real).

i "ship" phan, although its more of a firm belief that theyre together rather than liking the idea of them being together. i do read phanfiction. been reading it since 2012 or so, and i did go through a period of time where i stopped bc i wasn't too into deppy for a bit, but i started reading it again after i got back into them. i don't read it /as often/ as i used to, but i do read it every now and then if i want a good read.

[onetruetrash]

Can we... also just revisit what queerbaiting is?
Because queerbaiting is purposeful "will they? won't they? lol jk they never will, why would you think that?" It's not dissatisfying depictions of queerness, it's lying/teasing about queerness you were never gonna make good on.

Which, imo, is not the same as anything YoI is doing and also something Dip and Dots could have been cashing in in for years (god knows lads youtube does) and actually actively avoid.

Queerbaiting discussion in general: Just because they aren’t out or might actually not be together (hey, we don’t know that) doesn’t mean their behaviour is queerbaiting. I 100% believe that their affection for each other is genuine, no matter if they’re friends or actually together. Believing their behaviour towards each other must be queerbaiting if they’re not together is actually all kinds of weird to me. Like, that’s heteronormative because you have to think male best friends can’t do that stuff unless they’re also a couple, right? It doesn’t make sense otherwise? Even if they’re friends, why would you think their affection for each other is fake or put on for the views? I don’t get that at all. Male best friends can be cuddly and affectionate and touchy. The way they treat each other is real, no matter if they’re together or not. How is this even still a debate in 2017?

I think a lot of the queerbaiting accusations stem from this. "Two men? Being affectionate with each other? How can this be unless they're a couple? Male friends aren't allowed to do that! They must be faking it for the views!" This is not an attack on anyone on here, just saying, but this riles me up so bad, this whole idea that if Deppy weren't together, they would be queerbaiting. Like... why? What's your argument here? What are they doing that only couples are allowed to do and if other people do it it must be fake? I don't get it.

(Just to make it clear, this has absolutely nothing to do with their sexualities. I do not think they’re straight. This is just about their relationship with each other which is still not confirmed.)

Mate, look at the thumbnails of Would You Rather, Truth or Dare, and Truth or Dare 2. If they were straight, those would all be examples of queerbaiting. Maybe there's more, but those three come to mind immediately.

[iwishiwasacasual]

i've kind of adopted this 'guilty until proven innocent' attitude towards them regarding queerbaiting and i know its incredibly shitty of me and i should probably just shut the fuck up because people far smarter than i am have thought about it more and written their far more articulate thoughts on the topic.

Buddy (and I mean that sincerely), not to dog pile on you because you've clearly thought about this and know it's not ok but I really sincerely hope you're more generous and sympathetic to non-famous closeted people and the ways they try to navigate figuring out who is safe to come out to. Because yikes did that hurt.

i am so sorry if i've offended anyone, like i said i know that my attitude is definitely not okay and whether you believe me or not i do try to think through my flawed opinions and change them. and i would obviously never actually say anything like this to anyone who tried to come out to me. but over the years of watching youtube i've just learnt to assume anything presented to me as a viewer is just something manufactured to gain more views, and learned behaviours are hard to change, i just wanted to present my honest opinions and now realise that maybe this wasn't the best place for them.
at this point i'm just digging myself further into a hole and should really just shut up. again i'm so so sorry.

[aleanna]

Can we... also just revisit what queerbaiting is?
Because queerbaiting is purposeful "will they? won't they? lol jk they never will, why would you think that?" It's not dissatisfying depictions of queerness, it's lying/teasing about queerness you were never gonna make good on.

Which, imo, is not the same as anything YoI is doing and also something Dip and Dots could have been cashing in in for years (god knows lads youtube does) and actually actively avoid.

Queerbaiting discussion in general: Just because they aren’t out or might actually not be together (hey, we don’t know that) doesn’t mean their behaviour is queerbaiting. I 100% believe that their affection for each other is genuine, no matter if they’re friends or actually together. Believing their behaviour towards each other must be queerbaiting if they’re not together is actually all kinds of weird to me. Like, that’s heteronormative because you have to think male best friends can’t do that stuff unless they’re also a couple, right? It doesn’t make sense otherwise? Even if they’re friends, why would you think their affection for each other is fake or put on for the views? I don’t get that at all. Male best friends can be cuddly and affectionate and touchy. The way they treat each other is real, no matter if they’re together or not. How is this even still a debate in 2017?

I think a lot of the queerbaiting accusations stem from this. "Two men? Being affectionate with each other? How can this be unless they're a couple? Male friends aren't allowed to do that! They must be faking it for the views!" This is not an attack on anyone on here, just saying, but this riles me up so bad, this whole idea that if Deppy weren't together, they would be queerbaiting. Like... why? What's your argument here? What are they doing that only couples are allowed to do and if other people do it it must be fake? I don't get it.

(Just to make it clear, this has absolutely nothing to do with their sexualities. I do not think they’re straight. This is just about their relationship with each other which is still not confirmed.)

Mate, look at the thumbnails of Would You Rather, Truth or Dare, and Truth or Dare 2. If they were straight, those would all be examples of queerbaiting. Maybe there's more, but those three come to mind immediately.

I mean, yeah, but also...those videos are all almost 7 years old. And Dan has at least unlisted 1 of them because he now recognizes that it is problematic. Most people who claim Deppy are queerbaiting point to small, innocuous things that are just affectionate and COULD just be affection between friends. But because they're men...

They've changed a lot over the past 7 years, so we really shouldn't be judging current them on past them (or something).

[saffarinda]

Re. DnP Queer baiting: I mean, speaking honestly I wouldn't be surprised if some of their older stuff was lowkey queer baiting (the thumbnails are somewhat queerbait-ish, however could just be interpreted as clickbait for the shock factor of the thumbnail), however I don't feel their actions were ever highly manufatured in order to entice and audience. I didn't start watching DnP for "Phan", and I don't feel I'd stop watching them without it. I personally only saw them as flatmates, then only began to develop ideas that they may be together after countless videos wherin they appeared/mentioned one another - the first pinof defo shocked me - and comments that highlighted these moments. They can defo be viewed as just friends, as has been highlighted various times.

But therin brings the question: what do you consider queer baiting. Would you say deppy sitting close to one another is queer baiting? Extended eye contact? Fond smiles? Writing fanfiction about one another? Performing fanfiction about one another?

There are always two sides to the perspective as well. Take the performing of fanfiction. Queer baiting, fan service, or just joking around? Was it right of Dan and Phil to do something implicitly homo erotic? Were they manipulating their audience's fondness towards LGBT+ and their "relationship", were they just catering to their audience - comfortable enough with themselves that they were willing enough to present it, or were they just having harmless fun? Can the implicitly homosexual fanfiction be brushed off as fun? Would it be a callous move if they were just friends and appealing towards their target audience? However, wouldn't it also be a somewhat callous move if they just sold constructed aspects of their relationship to appeal to the masses?

tldr; i'm tired and rambling, but basically there are multiple sides to any argument, and anything can be viewed as cruel in some way - straying from not only queer baiting, but also to audience manipulation. i'd consider that before linking the evidence to proposed theories regarding the motives of their actions. that's all.

Although I just wanna add that Dan takes advantage of the viewers ability to construct ideas from implications. A dedicated fan could see Dan expressing attraction to males, a casual viewer could just see a lad, a straight bro, if they wanted to. Someone could see the ToD2 thumbnail as queer baiting due to the sexual situation of the two men on the front, someone else could just see it as a joke, combined with clickbait, and gather that the two guys are clearly NOT dating, whilst another fan could gather other implications... it's very useful for ensuring they retain viewers of all opinions.

this was useless but im gonna post it anyway withour even attempting to re-read, n try and sleep. goodnight my homesizzles

[onetruetrash]

Can we... also just revisit what queerbaiting is?
Because queerbaiting is purposeful "will they? won't they? lol jk they never will, why would you think that?" It's not dissatisfying depictions of queerness, it's lying/teasing about queerness you were never gonna make good on.

Which, imo, is not the same as anything YoI is doing and also something Dip and Dots could have been cashing in in for years (god knows lads youtube does) and actually actively avoid.

Queerbaiting discussion in general: Just because they aren’t out or might actually not be together (hey, we don’t know that) doesn’t mean their behaviour is queerbaiting. I 100% believe that their affection for each other is genuine, no matter if they’re friends or actually together. Believing their behaviour towards each other must be queerbaiting if they’re not together is actually all kinds of weird to me. Like, that’s heteronormative because you have to think male best friends can’t do that stuff unless they’re also a couple, right? It doesn’t make sense otherwise? Even if they’re friends, why would you think their affection for each other is fake or put on for the views? I don’t get that at all. Male best friends can be cuddly and affectionate and touchy. The way they treat each other is real, no matter if they’re together or not. How is this even still a debate in 2017?

I think a lot of the queerbaiting accusations stem from this. "Two men? Being affectionate with each other? How can this be unless they're a couple? Male friends aren't allowed to do that! They must be faking it for the views!" This is not an attack on anyone on here, just saying, but this riles me up so bad, this whole idea that if Deppy weren't together, they would be queerbaiting. Like... why? What's your argument here? What are they doing that only couples are allowed to do and if other people do it it must be fake? I don't get it.

(Just to make it clear, this has absolutely nothing to do with their sexualities. I do not think they’re straight. This is just about their relationship with each other which is still not confirmed.)

Mate, look at the thumbnails of Would You Rather, Truth or Dare, and Truth or Dare 2. If they were straight, those would all be examples of queerbaiting. Maybe there's more, but those three come to mind immediately.

I mean, yeah, but also...those videos are all almost 7 years old. And Dan has at least unlisted 1 of them because he now recognizes that it is problematic. Most people who claim Deppy are queerbaiting point to small, innocuous things that are affectionate and COULD just be affection between friends. But because they're men...

They've changed a lot over the past 7 years, so we really shouldn't be judging current them on past them (or something).

I know, but it still would've happened and that could anger people. Obviously they would never do that now though.

[alittledizzy]

I know, but it still would've happened and that could anger people. Obviously they would never do that now though.

If they wouldn't, and don't, do anything to cash in on a potential relationship now then why is it relevant to Dan's opinion on YOI and queerbaiting? Bringing that kind of stuff up doesn't seem to add anything to the conversation about Dan now, all it does is point out that Dan of seven or eight years ago is definitely not the same person as Dan of right now - which I think we're all aware of.

[onetruetrash]

I know, but it still would've happened and that could anger people. Obviously they would never do that now though.

If they wouldn't, and don't, do anything to cash in on a potential relationship now then why is it relevant to Dan's opinion on YOI and queerbaiting? Bringing that kind of stuff up doesn't seem to add anything to the conversation about Dan now, all it does is point out that Dan of seven or eight years ago is definitely not the same person as Dan of right now - which I think we're all aware of.

I was just talking about Dan and Phil queerbaiting (I'm not saying they have queerbaited) generally.

[fancybum]

Phil and Misc Watch 2017
DAN HITS THE G NOTE (July 4, 2017)

Prompted Phil Mention

35:00 (chat) How do you feel about Phil with curled hair
“So I curled Phil’s hair, who saw that video? Me and Phil sometimes are just next to each other like, ‘what’s your next video? oh, this is my next video, that’s cool’ and then Phil was like, ‘um I want you to curl my hair with some curling irons’. Who cares, give the people what they want."
"I was so scared of actually injuring Phil”
“Actually think for a second if I actually ripped off AmazingPhil’s fringe, he probably has it insured, I don’t know, but it’s like, oh my god”
-it would have been iconic

Unprompted Phil Mention

07:20 (about ‘reasons why dan’s a fail’ jingle) "Little fact that someone asked me at Vidcon: it is Phil and I both singing together while I ditty on a cringe stylophone"

18:20 “Earlier I was really hot, and I was just sat in a pair of pajama pants and a hoodie and Phil walked past me and said ‘if you’re really hot, why are you wearing this literally gigantic sweater’"

44:45 (chat) What anime are you watching at the moment?
"I’m watching Code Geass which Phil doesn’t know how much he likes it, I’m like into it”

Neutral Phil Mention

01:15 “This time, when Phil and I - ‘cause he’s been dragged into it this time, too - were attempting to get into America for Vidcon, we missed our flight"
"In all fairness, despite how disorganized and terrible I seem to be generally in life, it was the first time, and only time, I have ever actually fully missed a flight"

2:15 (re-tells the missing the flight story)
"We were getting ready to leave, Phil looked at me and was like, ‘Dan, why has all the colour drained out of your face’"
"We start both freaking out ‘cause we’re supposed to be headlining an arena show at Vidcon the next evening”
"People were gonna turn up to our meet-up and it’s just gonna be a wall - 'Hi I met Dan and Phil and it was so much better than the experience of actually meeting them’"
"We landed in California about two hours before me and Phil were supposed to go on stage"
-ok but what was the actual performance supposed to be up until that point, that seems like a major plot point that’s being ignored

14:35 "We hung out with Cat, and Cat, our friend, is a crazy dog lady”
"It’s not even being mean, it’s just a fact at this point”
“And she was like, ‘do you wanna film a video while we’re together’ and we were like, ‘have you talked about your dog’”
-lmao so she suggested filming a video with them and Dan suggested just playing with her dog, same Dan

15:35 “Yeah, Phil was convinced he could teach this dog tricks, no, I was just there to look at it and make noises”

21:10 “I don’t care who you are or why you’re watching me, if you don’t watch Phil and I’s - or mine and Phil’s - Sims 4 series on our gaming channel, you’re missing out on the most important drama series being produced this year”

22:10 “So me and Phil, we try not to read the comments too much in case it spoils Sims mechanics, but every single comment and tweet we’ve gotten is ‘don’t contact the aliens!!!11!’ [because they’ll alien-nap Dalien]"
23:20 “All I know is it’s a good time to be watching the videos on DAPG” because renovation-porn is upcoming

23:55 (about GeoGuessr) "Although, a lot of people didn’t seem to— I said, when Phil was reading a sign in Portugese, we were trying to trick each other, and I went, ‘it’s Mexican, the Mexican language.’ A lot of people didn’t think I was joking” etc
“I’m not that stupid, ok? [A lot of comments were like], ‘oh man, Dan and Phil, I’m really disappointed’ and we were joking. We obviously need a much more offensive and degrading to each other sarcasm voice. I mean, that’s just gonna happen on the internet, isn’t it? You can’t avoid making a joke and somebody going, ‘wow that’s a serious opinion you have, this is strange.’ So there you go."
-I’m going to tie this into the ‘Dan should feel guilt’ thing and say: he realizes a lot of the audience (or just: the world), no matter what he or anybody else does, is going to be fucking stupid about whatever they feel like being stupid about. He can only say and do so much on behalf of himself and beyond that, for the people out there who don’t/won’t understand what he’s putting out into the world, that’s kind of their own fucking problem and has little to do with him. He’s never promised anything that other people want to project onto him and have him live up to and that’s not his problem nor his guilt to take on. That was close enough to a sentence.

40:10 "Phil and I, as we were recovering emotionally and jetlaggy from the intense week in America, played and 100%’d the whole of Crash Bandicoot 1”
“There’s 2 more games” “We’re debating, maybe we should do some streaming sometime on the gaming channel” “We could do an epic 6 hour thing on a Saturday where we just play Crash Bandicoot all day, or something. Don’t get excited about that, ‘cause it might not work, ‘cause me and Phil don’t know how to do that"
-TOO LATE I’M EXCITED

41:20 “If [streaming] doesn’t happen in the next two weeks, it might happen in the next two years, who knows"

59:55 "The next video on DAPG is one of my favourite videos that we’ve ever put on that channel, it is crazy, it’s very funny"
-i want

Miscellaneous

07:50 (chat) do you like the Libertines?
“Yes, although more in like 2006 I guess"
-more like 2004 but ahh romanticizing the trainwrecked life and supposed genius of an unwashed and tortured heroin addict, god those were the days. how were mcr and all that comparative whiny angst-lite ever supposed to compare

12:50 “So I stole an angry react cushion from Facebook and it’s literally my favourite thing”
“I’m just gonna look at it, I’m gonna make out with it, I’m gonna make love to it, I’m gonna have a baby with it, and it’ll be a very angry baby”
-my heart hurts for Haru being treated like this, they’ve been through so much together and Dan’s just tossed him aside for this moody bitch, how dare


13:55 "You’re not a true aficionado of memes if you’re a shallow meme hipster, trading them like the stock market where it’s hot now and not funny later”
"I made a whole video about this ‘cause I’m weird”

15:43 (chat) Louise is having a baby
"I know, aren’t you just like so hooked to her channel and every piece of news right now, living vicariously through that"
-nope, don’t want to hear any gross pregnancy anything, I’m out but uhhh happy she’s happy etc whatever

17:05 (chat) I love you
“Aw, thanks. You don’t know me in real life, I might be a cannibal. Be careful."

17:53 “Yes, I can confirm videos were filmed with Anthony”
“They are funny and intense”
-what does intense mean here and UPLOAD THEM NOW

19:10 (chat) Did you have fun overall at Vidcon?
“I always have- I mean, it’s very crazy, for anyone with any amount of social anxiety it’s like ~internal screaming for 72 hours~ but you know, any situation where it’s good to connect with the real people that watch you is good. ‘Cause YT is not good for your mental health ‘cause it’s all up in your head and it’s all imaginary, so to see it irl, it’s grounding and it’s good. That’s the thing with the internet, makes us think too much."

24:45 "The Try Guys, we met them at Vidcon, they were super nice"
-yeah isn’t everybody all the time

26:40 “My intention with the [Meme video] was to kind of make us all aware of how we’re living in this quite boring time of humanity, and then to try and give it a meaning, but not an actual one, because there is no meaning, so it’s all a big joke.”
-i mean that does kind of sum up the video itself in the end doesn’t it

27:28 (chat) Dan, defrizz your hair
“I don’t know what a hair product is, you gotta help me”

31:35 "I feel bad sometimes because conventions are so expensive, they’re not like going to see someone on tour, they’re like the price of seeing 7 people on tour. And it’s a shame that the performances aren’t as good as when people do their own shows” etc in this vein.
"Dan rambling"
-RAMBLING OR PLANTING SEEDS? I’m genuinely afraid of where this will end, I don’t want to endure the fallout, pls nooo

36:50 (about next YOI season) "It’s all I’m looking forward to in life. (pauses) But why don’t they kiss? I don’t know, like, there’s so much anime porn, where’s the kissing on YOI. It’s all words and it almost makes you think, like, is this all just some weird queerbaiting, they’re not actually gay or something— but I mean, like, not that I’m saying, I mean like— more. Like if you’re watching Riverdale, if you’re watching a normal anime, and it’s like boobs and kissing and other stuff—
(chat) because censorship
"No, anime’s weird. Maybe they just want it to be wholesome and they’re like ‘they’ll do a light kiss’. Did they kiss on camera, though? Or was it like, they fell on each other."
(chat) censorship
"There’s a lot of gay anime, there’s a lot of lesbian anime. Yeah, but you know, you get like children’s tv where there’s a makeout session and I’m just questioning… anyway."
-a straight makeout session is what he meant there, I assume. Yeah, the world is garbage and we’re all trapped here

38:08 (chat) It was a confirmed kiss
"‘Confirmed’? You can’t just do all this stuff off-camera and say ~it’s canon~ it’s just, it’s weird, I don’t understand."
-world. garbage.

38:43 (chat) the animators said it was a kiss
"Well why didn’t they make it obvious? Let’s get off this. (laughs) Please don’t take any of this seriously."
-I appreciate the passion behind all of this though and his willingness to go in on it for a good two minutes (even if the answer is clearly enough: censorship. and garbageness of world etc.)

38:35 New video within the next 7 days “maybe. perhaps."

42:35 "You know what is good? Vegan cheese."
-this statement is violently false, to my unending despair. but vegan!Dan rise.

50:09 (chat) Would you kill Cersei if you had the chance?
“You know, I’d like to think I wouldn’t murder anyone.”
-so if he is a cannibal, he's a lazy one, which really takes the edge off of his earlier warning

52:35 “In any fandom, there’s just these conspiracies that are just like so insane"
-listen, we're all just trying to pass the time

56:05 (chat) How do you cope with existential crises?
“I don’t lmao"

56:40 (chat) I’m so tired
“Get rest, it’s important. Stay hydrated. Try to get 8 hours of sleep. If you don’t get 8 hours of sleep, have a nap. It’s better to get 8 hours, but if you ever don’t, when you get back from school or work, just have a little nap"
-yeah maybe I would if I didn’t have to go to work after work somebody kill me you’ll get a cat

59:00 (chat) Avocados are ruining millennials
“It’s true, I’m a millennial. I don’t have a lot of avocados, I hardly ever have them, but I saw a recipe and I wanted to try it, and you know, I just won’t be able to afford anything else now.”

Phinal Tally: said ‘Phil’ 22 times
~22/60.5mins = 0.36 per min

Anyway I’m going to go jump in a river until everybody is all queerbaited out.

[alittledizzy]

fancybum, saving us all.

23:55 (about GeoGuessr) "Although, a lot of people didn’t seem to— I said, when Phil was reading a sign in Portugese, we were trying to trick each other, and I went, ‘it’s Mexican, the Mexican language.’ A lot of people didn’t think I was joking” etc
“I’m not that stupid, ok? [A lot of comments were like], ‘oh man, Dan and Phil, I’m really disappointed’ and we were joking. We obviously need a much more offensive and degrading to each other sarcasm voice. I mean, that’s just gonna happen on the internet, isn’t it? You can’t avoid making a joke and somebody going, ‘wow that’s a serious opinion you have, this is strange.’ So there you go."
-I’m going to tie this into the ‘Dan should feel guilt’ thing and say: he realizes a lot of the audience (or just: the world), no matter what he or anybody else does, is going to be fucking stupid about whatever they feel like being stupid about. He can only say and do so much on behalf of himself and beyond that, for the people out there who don’t/won’t understand what he’s putting out into the world, that’s kind of their own fucking problem and has little to do with him. He’s never promised anything that other people want to project onto him and have him live up to and that’s not his problem nor his guilt to take on. That was close enough to a sentence.

In other news, Dan liked this:

[captainspacecoat]

oh god not the queer baiting discussion again

Basically I pretty much agree with katka, good post, good opinions

I also think Dan suggesting that YOI may be queerbaiting just came from being a non-straight person who is wary of poor LGBT+ representation, and just generally wishing that same gender couples were afforded the same amount of explicitness and openness that straight couples are afforded in media.

Yeah, he neglects to take into account that actually YOI does a pretty great job representation-wise considering it's come from such a conservative country, and that the creators of the show probably also wish they could be more explicit with the gayness but did the best they could considering the context within which they're making the show.

Can't blame him though for still wishing things were different, and venting about how unfair it is that queer couples continue to be sort of veiled and vague while heterosexual couples can happily make out in children's media and that's all cool.

Anyway.

19:10 (chat) Did you have fun overall at Vidcon?
“I always have- I mean, it’s very crazy, for anyone with any amount of social anxiety it’s like ~internal screaming for 72 hours~ but you know, any situation where it’s good to connect with the real people that watch you is good. ‘Cause YT is not good for your mental health ‘cause it’s all up in your head and it’s all imaginary, so to see it irl, it’s grounding and it’s good. That’s the thing with the internet, makes us think too much."

Another open mention of mental health issues, I genuinely can't imagine how stressful a convention like vidcon would be for someone who is socially anxious (don't know if I could do it personally), so props to him for making it through

31:35 "I feel bad sometimes because conventions are so expensive, they’re not like going to see someone on tour, they’re like the price of seeing 7 people on tour. And it’s a shame that the performances aren’t as good as when people do their own shows” etc in this vein.
"Dan rambling"
-RAMBLING OR PLANTING SEEDS? I’m genuinely afraid of where this will end, I don’t want to endure the fallout, pls nooo

I thought the same thing! Is this the second time recently he's mentioned his issues with certain mechanics behind youtube conventions? Genuinely terrified about whatever is up their sleeves..

07:20 (about ‘reasons why dan’s a fail’ jingle) "Little fact that someone asked me at Vidcon: it is Phil and I both singing together while I ditty on a cringe stylophone"

I did not know this. I feel so enlightened.

“There’s 2 more games” “We’re debating, maybe we should do some streaming sometime on the gaming channel” “We could do an epic 6 hour thing on a Saturday where we just play Crash Bandicoot all day, or something. Don’t get excited about that, ‘cause it might not work, ‘cause me and Phil don’t know how to do that"
-TOO LATE I’M EXCITED

God me too! I really hope they do this omg. Would also 100% be down for Dan's unironic scented candle hauls!

[nøx]

Oh goodness, I wasn't around to watch the liveshow and so much happened in here, I hope I'm not just parroting. I also wrote on this for so long that I got logged out, I'm sorry if I'm just repeating things that have been said in the meantime.

About D&P queerbaiting: Personally, I find it kinda icky to talk about queerbaiting in the context of real life people with a right to privacy. (A privacy that I suspect would be even harder to maintain, should they ever "come out" as a couple.) Even if the personas on screen are mainly manufactured, it's nowhere near the same as an entirely fictional character.
Besides, I think Dan has been pretty clear that he isn't straight. As for Phil? More debatable perhaps, but I do honestly think he is hinting in his own way that he isn't straight. Can content by queer creators with queer personas/characters even be queerbaiting? I would say no, even if there is not a romantic relationship involved. I might be a little defensive on this, because I'm making a comic that will probably get me hounded for queerbaiting when I don't put in a kiss at the end. Even though... I am a queer person and the main characters are all 100% queer lol. But the queer rep doesn't count if they're '"just" friends, it often seems.
Lets say it's useful to use queerbaiting in the context of Dan and Phil, being two real-life people, where at least one of them is Not Straight (however he IDs): Are Dan and Phil doing anything at all, in the present day, that actually counts as queerbaiting, calculated to lure in the LGBTQ+ audience? Besides, you know, being Not Straight and close friends that are possibly NOT in a romantic relationship? I don't see them playing it up in any way on screen that isn't just exactly how I also act with my (fellow LGBTQ+) friends, and it seems really odd to me to call "being not straight and close friends" queerbaiting.

About YOI: Afaik, queerbaiting is a western term and I'm a little reluctant to use it in a Japanese context. I can't really speak on behalf of the Japanese audience, but here's what I gathered from the people I follow who translated and commented on interviews with the creators: In Japanese media, there's a stronger tendency towards audience interpretation. The audience prefers being able to interpret parts however they please. Western fans wants things cut out, served on a silver platter and fed with a spoon to accept them. But also, the Japanese audience seems to have approximately zero doubts about that kiss and the creators are genuinely surprised that the western audience has been demanding confirmation from them. That's just my two cents on YOI and "queerbaiting."
Like, I also want clear, in-your-face queer representation (cue me being genuinely upset that the genderlessness of the gems haven't yet been discussed on screen in Steven Universe, yikes, give me that silver platter) but I think it's unfair to stick western standards, terms and expectations onto Japanese media, just like that, and then I haven't even talked about the censoring.
There's a difference between queerbaiting (deliberately trying to lure in a liberal/queer audience to profit off of them and then never delivering) and the production team doing all they can to create good queer rep within whatever confinements they have.

And there's a pretty big difference between demanding that the entertainment industry gets their act together and invent and show us good queer rep and saying that two real life individuals are queerbaiting, unless they confirm their private relationship status to us. And even if they did, I'm certain there would still be people doubting the sincerity of it.

[LtrllySusan]

Yes, there is a romance happening, but it's not the most important part of Viktor or Yuri's life. It's a private thing that matters to them, and the audience gets to see the bits and pieces that are relevant to their character growth and the skating storyline.

This definitely sounds familiar if you put it into another context as well haha!

I just watched the YOI segment and what firstly stands out to me is how two sentences in he suddenly seems to get really rambly and slightly uncomfortable (?) with the topic. As soon as he drops the terms "queerbaiting" and "gay", he starts saying "I mean" and the like a lot. I don't doubt that in that moment he became aware people were going to discuss his statement in the light of his and Phil's behaviour.

The reason I quoted this is because I agree with the similarities between the Victuuri and Phan storyline, and that is why it's odd to me that Dan seems to feel so strongly about this. If I assume for this argument that Phan is real, shouldn't YOI be an empowering voice for couples similar to them? Aka that it is completely ok to not disclose every single fact about your (possibly romantic) relationship, about your sexuality and so on, and that it shouldn't be expected just because someone might be homosexual. I feel like DnP have been taking this stance for a long time and basically taken a similar story-telling approach as YOI (see quote above), so I am very confused as to why Dan is so critical about it.

[nøx]

My favourite part was definitely when Dan said something along the lines of "Not that names or gender mEAN ANYTHING!!" because, I mean, same. (Please don't take that as an actual summary of my entire opinion on gender, ahah!) I would actually really love to have a conversation with Dan about gender. I'm just genuinely interested in his off-camera opinion and experiences, so anytime it comes up, I'm delighted lol.

I'm genderfluid so that's what really made me love Dan, one of the first things I saw with him was a liveshow where he talked about gender and I was just so moved by what he said. From then on I just fell deeper and deeper into the rabbit hole.

hehe, was it the formless blob one?
I id as agender and I'm always down for a gender conversation. It seems to me that Dan has a lot more to say on the topic than what he shares on screen, so I really, really would love to hear his opinions on the subject in a private setting. I can dream lol

[Qwaydo]

I feel like phil could definitely pull a quiff, he have the model complexion, i feel like phil looks better with a quiff than a dan, maybe its just me, still my two fav models .

[Birdie]

That was such a good and informative post, thank you, nøx! I didn't even think about cultural context regarding YOI and queerbaiting, thanks for bringing that up.

I just watched the YOI segment and what firstly stands out to me is how two sentences in he suddenly seems to get really rambly and slightly uncomfortable (?) with the topic. As soon as he drops the terms "queerbaiting" and "gay", he starts saying "I mean" and the like a lot. I don't doubt that in that moment he became aware people were going to discuss his statement in the light of his and Phil's behaviour.

The reason I quoted this is because I agree with the similarities between the Victuuri and Phan storyline, and that is why it's odd to me that Dan seems to feel so strongly about this. If I assume for this argument that Phan is real, shouldn't YOI be an empowering voice for couples similar to them? Aka that it is completely ok to not disclose every single fact about your (possibly romantic) relationship, about your sexuality and so on, and that it shouldn't be expected just because someone might be homosexual. I feel like DnP have been taking this stance for a long time and basically taken a similar story-telling approach as YOI (see quote above), so I am very confused as to why Dan is so critical about it.

Good point. I wouldn't talk about Dan and Phil's actual life stories as "storytelling" but I think I know what you mean. If I remember correctly he has been slightly dismissive/critical of YOI before which I also already found quite weird since he's usually all over those sports animes. Maybe he just doesn't really like the show (for whatever reasons, doesn't really matter) and doesn't want to admit it since he knows it's so popular? He's always been a bit evasive when it comes to opinions like this. Just a guess though.

Someone pointed out that maybe Dan is just disappointed the representation wasn't as in-your-face as he wanted it to be and that's certainly possible but I'm still a bit irked he decided to criticise YOI for queerbaiting instead of Free! or that volleyball anime (I can't find what it's called, sorry) when those two are without a doubt very queerbaity and we know he likes those a lot too. It's just weird to me why he would choose YOI for this when YOI is actual representation, albeit not as clear as Western fans might have wanted it to be. Maybe we're overthinking what he said (lol, of course we are) but the whole thing is a bit weird and bothers me slightly. YOI is quite progressive when it comes to anime (non-yaoi queer characters, interacial romance etc.) and I wish he wouldn't have chosen it for his queerbaiting comment when we know he watches other ones that are far worse.

Man, I hope this makes sense. I only slept like two hours and I feel like I'm sleep-walking.

[Whommel]

My favourite part was definitely when Dan said something along the lines of "Not that names or gender mEAN ANYTHING!!" because, I mean, same. (Please don't take that as an actual summary of my entire opinion on gender, ahah!) I would actually really love to have a conversation with Dan about gender. I'm just genuinely interested in his off-camera opinion and experiences, so anytime it comes up, I'm delighted lol.

I'm genderfluid so that's what really made me love Dan, one of the first things I saw with him was a liveshow where he talked about gender and I was just so moved by what he said. From then on I just fell deeper and deeper into the rabbit hole.

hehe, was it the formless blob one?
I id as agender and I'm always down for a gender conversation. It seems to me that Dan has a lot more to say on the topic than what he shares on screen, so I really, really would love to hear his opinions on the subject in a private setting. I can dream lol

It was! Just listened to it again and it's beautiful! It speaks so much to me. I could listen to him speak for hours about this subject tbh.

I just realized that you're both non-binary and Danish! Where have you been all my life? You're making me feel much less weird and unicorny, because then I know that there's at least 2 of us out of the 5,5 million people around me.